Warrior General Games

Originally posted by whatje
wat?

It's a theory I'm going to test on my new DE. All my previous DEs have spd 95+ and I'm going on a limp to think that's a waste in the short distance between the DE and the QB and not to mention the DE is being blocked by the OT most of the time on route to the QB anyway.

Originally posted by BiggerBlue
I do not think so simply because good str based OL can dominate a pure passrushing DE. We can argue about is this fair in another thread, but the reason str seems overrated is because DEs can't catch up to OL, but that is no reason for DEs to not add str to 90s. I personally think spd is overrated once it passes the 80s and there's really no reason to up them to 90s-100s.


In todays sim this is somewhat true. str/agi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>spd/agi

oh ok. i'd say you may be a little behind the curve on that one, though. plenty of good DEs have been either high strength or high agility and speed between 85-95. I like to keep my DEs around 80 or 85...but in WL you may need 90ish, haven't had a DE there yet...and certainly having at least one pass rusher (95+ speed) is nice.

Originally posted by BiggerBlue
Originally posted by tautology

Agreed on strength, though it certainly makes a difference in the run game. I would want speed higher for sure though on a pure pass rusher.

I do not think so simply because good str based OL can dominate a pure passrushing DE. We can argue about is this fair in another thread, but the reason str seems overrated is because DEs can't catch up to OL, but that is no reason for DEs to not add str to 90s. I personally think spd is overrated once it passes the 80s and there's really no reason to up them to 90s-100s.


Yeah... you're wrong about speed.

Originally posted by regoob2
Originally posted by BiggerBlue

I do not think so simply because good str based OL can dominate a pure passrushing DE. We can argue about is this fair in another thread, but the reason str seems overrated is because DEs can't catch up to OL, but that is no reason for DEs to not add str to 90s. I personally think spd is overrated once it passes the 80s and there's really no reason to up them to 90s-100s.


In todays sim this is somewhat true. str/agi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>spd/agi

Disagree here. A pass rushing DE that's not STR based (115+) only needs enough str to not get pancaked repeatedly. This is around 90ish in a top league.

Originally posted by taurran
Disagree here. A pass rushing DE that's not STR based (115+) only needs enough str to not get pancaked repeatedly. This is around 90ish in a top league.

But wouldn't strength help in the break block roll?

Originally posted by Hagalaz
Originally posted by taurran

Disagree here. A pass rushing DE that's not STR based (115+) only needs enough str to not get pancaked repeatedly. This is around 90ish in a top league.

But wouldn't strength help in the break block roll?

Against a OT that has 120+ strength, VAs, and hold block gear? Probably not too much. There are enough agility based break block SAs/VAs that you can get by with high agility/speed and be ok. You just need to ensure you have enough strength to stay off your ass all game.

IMO of course.

Originally posted by taurran
Against a OT that has 120+ strength, VAs, and hold block gear? Probably not too much. There are enough agility based break block SAs/VAs that you can get by with high agility/speed and be ok. You just need to ensure you have enough strength to stay off your ass all game.

IMO of course.

Whoa whoa whoa, dude, we know from various bortisms that strength has (before bull rusher) a higher coefficient in the break block roll than agility. Even if the opposite side was the great wall of china, your highest chances of breaking a block would be stacking the attributes that increase your chance to break a block, meaning strength for example.

The opponent having 120 or 240 strength and 35% or 350% hold block chance is the same. Higher chances of breaking a block are higher chances of breaking a block. The roll isn't "strength vs strength" and "agility vs agility"... It's both factors at once.

Originally posted by Hagalaz


The opponent having 120 or 240 strength and 35% or 350% hold block chance is the same. Higher chances of breaking a block are higher chances of breaking a block. The roll isn't "strength vs strength" and "agility vs agility"... It's both factors at once.

This is how I had always interpreted the mechanics of breaking a block (a holistic roll taking all factors into account, not an attribute comparison)--anyone know for sure?

Originally posted by Hagalaz
Originally posted by taurran

Against a OT that has 120+ strength, VAs, and hold block gear? Probably not too much. There are enough agility based break block SAs/VAs that you can get by with high agility/speed and be ok. You just need to ensure you have enough strength to stay off your ass all game.

IMO of course.

Whoa whoa whoa, dude, we know from various bortisms that strength has (before bull rusher) a higher coefficient in the break block roll than agility. Even if the opposite side was the great wall of china, your highest chances of breaking a block would be stacking the attributes that increase your chance to break a block, meaning strength for example.

The opponent having 120 or 240 strength and 35% or 350% hold block chance is the same. Higher chances of breaking a block are higher chances of breaking a block. The roll isn't "strength vs strength" and "agility vs agility"... It's both factors at once.

You speak from what experience? I've coordinated and/or built some of the best DEs in the game. Breaking blocks isn't everything if you're too slow to make the sack, and I've never seen a pass rushing DE with less than 90 speed lead the sack leader boards.

I'm not talking about a DE with 60 strength, either.

Originally posted by SunshineMan89
Originally posted by Hagalaz



The opponent having 120 or 240 strength and 35% or 350% hold block chance is the same. Higher chances of breaking a block are higher chances of breaking a block. The roll isn't "strength vs strength" and "agility vs agility"... It's both factors at once.

This is how I had always interpreted the mechanics of breaking a block (a holistic roll taking all factors into account, not an attribute comparison)--anyone know for sure?




No. Anyone that claims to, like the guy above, is just making guesses. A DE with 10000% to break blocks is worthless if he's a slow turd.

I've always understood that agility is the bigger factor on breaking blocks, but that's just based on making a bunch of DL and experimenting with different builds.

Basically: strength = better revcake roll, agility = more revcake rolls.

Just IMO of course.

my guess has been that:

for D-linemen strength and agility are equal parts of the break block roll, but:

strength plays more a roll in pushing/revcaking

agility's little extra is it effects your acceleration

(my guess for the O-lineman would be that their "hold block" score consisted of 40% str, 40% block, 20% agility for run blocking and 20% str, 40% block, 40% agility for pass blocking... just my guess)

He tweaks what works and what doesn't every 3 seasons anyways fwiw so build one with high strength and one with high agility and you'll have 2 guys who'll perform half the time. Profit?

It is definitely a holistic roll rather than attribute vs. attribute. If any DE builder hasn't figure this out yet, and then claims on this board he's an expert.....