Rogers i would like a shot at you dude but before i get at you i need you to repeat your question.....i'll answer and then ask you a question or two ..........lol this is going to be fun because so far you havent even been challenged and the questions that you have presented not brain teasers at all lol
Forum > Private Forum Announcements > CHRISTIAN PLAYERS OF GLB FORUM IS NOW OPEN
UNTOUCHABLE LOGIC
Since God can do anything and since God is also perfectly good, in any situation, God is limited to one action. How? It's simple really. God is limited to doing the most perfect action every single time in any situation. Since God knows everything and since he is perfectly good, he already knows what the most perfect action is for every situation so of course, he can only do that one most perfect thing every single time.
Because of this, God has no free will. He is limited to doing that one perfect thing. God can do anything right? Well that's obviously not true since if he's perfectly good, he cannot do most things since, just to repeat myself, he can only do the one thing that is perfectly good in every situation by definition.
And again, if God were to have the choice to do other things which he knows are not the perfect thing to do then God is not perfect. Please try to remember the definition of the word "perfect." Perfect is not right 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. It is 100%.
God cannot make a mistake or do anything even one step below perfection because then he would no longer be God by the definition we use to understand him. To spontaneously change his definition and say "Well God must be almost perfect" just defeats the whole purpose of believing God is an actual entity and not just an idea or a concept if you can change how you perceive him just to fit your belief system. But to get back on track...
So when God chose to create imperfect beings (us) in an imperfect world (the Universe), this HAS TO BE the most perfect and good action. In addition, if this is the perfect and most good decision possible, all the things you see are perfect. Death, birth, murder, love, suffering, joy, genocide. All of it was created by God, who only acts in the most perfect ways. So if we interpret anything as evil, we inherently go against God. When God decided to create the angel who eventually became the Devil, it is not as though God had no idea. God knows everything. To say he didn't know it would happen is to deny God exists.
And just because God gave us free will is not an excuse to explain evil. God knows everything. If God knows everything, then he also has to be aware of our decisions. If he already knows what we are going to decide for ourselves, this also must factor in to his decisions to do perfectly good things. If God creates a person who becomes a bad person, God is not unaware of his fate. To say he does not know something is paradoxical to the definition of God. God intentionally does all things knowing completely the effects of his decision and all his decisions are perfect.
So this leaves us with three general possibilities...
A) God exists and the ideas of good and evil are man-made interpretations of events, things, people, etc. Since if God exists and we are his creation, we and all things are perfect. To make something that we feel is imperfect defies our definition of God.
B) Our definition of God is entirely wrong and God could be a billion different things ranging from very good to almost perfect to very powerful to not that powerful to very evil to fallible to inept and everything in between.
or C) There is no God at all.
Since God can do anything and since God is also perfectly good, in any situation, God is limited to one action. How? It's simple really. God is limited to doing the most perfect action every single time in any situation. Since God knows everything and since he is perfectly good, he already knows what the most perfect action is for every situation so of course, he can only do that one most perfect thing every single time.
Because of this, God has no free will. He is limited to doing that one perfect thing. God can do anything right? Well that's obviously not true since if he's perfectly good, he cannot do most things since, just to repeat myself, he can only do the one thing that is perfectly good in every situation by definition.
And again, if God were to have the choice to do other things which he knows are not the perfect thing to do then God is not perfect. Please try to remember the definition of the word "perfect." Perfect is not right 99.99999999999999999999% of the time. It is 100%.
God cannot make a mistake or do anything even one step below perfection because then he would no longer be God by the definition we use to understand him. To spontaneously change his definition and say "Well God must be almost perfect" just defeats the whole purpose of believing God is an actual entity and not just an idea or a concept if you can change how you perceive him just to fit your belief system. But to get back on track...
So when God chose to create imperfect beings (us) in an imperfect world (the Universe), this HAS TO BE the most perfect and good action. In addition, if this is the perfect and most good decision possible, all the things you see are perfect. Death, birth, murder, love, suffering, joy, genocide. All of it was created by God, who only acts in the most perfect ways. So if we interpret anything as evil, we inherently go against God. When God decided to create the angel who eventually became the Devil, it is not as though God had no idea. God knows everything. To say he didn't know it would happen is to deny God exists.
And just because God gave us free will is not an excuse to explain evil. God knows everything. If God knows everything, then he also has to be aware of our decisions. If he already knows what we are going to decide for ourselves, this also must factor in to his decisions to do perfectly good things. If God creates a person who becomes a bad person, God is not unaware of his fate. To say he does not know something is paradoxical to the definition of God. God intentionally does all things knowing completely the effects of his decision and all his decisions are perfect.
So this leaves us with three general possibilities...
A) God exists and the ideas of good and evil are man-made interpretations of events, things, people, etc. Since if God exists and we are his creation, we and all things are perfect. To make something that we feel is imperfect defies our definition of God.
B) Our definition of God is entirely wrong and God could be a billion different things ranging from very good to almost perfect to very powerful to not that powerful to very evil to fallible to inept and everything in between.
or C) There is no God at all.
Last edited Mar 19, 2009 03:07:59
candan02
offline
offline
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
VincentJG
offline
offline
Originally posted by candan02
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
God is not predictable or understandable there is always a reason. If you are a believer you would know that sin is perfect in a way that is not understandable
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
God is not predictable or understandable there is always a reason. If you are a believer you would know that sin is perfect in a way that is not understandable
candan02
offline
offline
sin is perfect in a way that is not understandable hmmmm so your saying sin which is not understandable but you know its perfect .....ok.....call me crazy but that makes no sense!
candan02
offline
offline
oh and by the way the bible makes GOD somewhat predictable. God is not this enigma nor does he want to be hence the Word=Bible which communicates to us what he likes not likes etc...... Its all in relationship rather then works, church, "being good", or religion
Originally posted by candan02
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
The entire point of my post is that the whole Judeo-Christian God idea is contradictory. If God acts perfectly and is perfectly good, he cannot make a mistake. By creating sin, sin is therefore perfect OR there is no God OR God is nothing like we think he is.
To reject, deny or punish anything is to reject, deny or punish God's creation. And as we've already established, God is perfect and does perfect things. To reject, deny or punish anything is contradictory to God's definition.
Furthermore, our free will is not perfect, that's obvious. But that's the point dude. If God does anything, it must be perfect. For him to even make anything imperfect does not make sense within God's definition.
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
The entire point of my post is that the whole Judeo-Christian God idea is contradictory. If God acts perfectly and is perfectly good, he cannot make a mistake. By creating sin, sin is therefore perfect OR there is no God OR God is nothing like we think he is.
To reject, deny or punish anything is to reject, deny or punish God's creation. And as we've already established, God is perfect and does perfect things. To reject, deny or punish anything is contradictory to God's definition.
Furthermore, our free will is not perfect, that's obvious. But that's the point dude. If God does anything, it must be perfect. For him to even make anything imperfect does not make sense within God's definition.
Last edited Mar 19, 2009 20:28:30
Originally posted by number55
Originally posted by candan02
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
God is not predictable or understandable there is always a reason. If you are a believer you would know that sin is perfect in a way that is not understandable
This is what is ironic about religion. Number55, let's say hypothetically I murder your best friend. Would you react to this injustice by saying, "It was a sin, but it's perfect in a way, I just don't understand it. God bless my lost friend"... Of course not, you would judge me critically, you would want me put in jail, you would want me punished. How can it be PERFECT? Are you saying that struggle, pain, genocide, nuclear destruction... all these things are perfect and justified, we just don't understand how it is perfect??
Originally posted by candan02
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
God is not predictable or understandable there is always a reason. If you are a believer you would know that sin is perfect in a way that is not understandable
This is what is ironic about religion. Number55, let's say hypothetically I murder your best friend. Would you react to this injustice by saying, "It was a sin, but it's perfect in a way, I just don't understand it. God bless my lost friend"... Of course not, you would judge me critically, you would want me put in jail, you would want me punished. How can it be PERFECT? Are you saying that struggle, pain, genocide, nuclear destruction... all these things are perfect and justified, we just don't understand how it is perfect??
RIPPIN
offline
offline
Originally posted by thebigcali
Originally posted by number55
Originally posted by candan02
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
God is not predictable or understandable there is always a reason. If you are a believer you would know that sin is perfect in a way that is not understandable
This is what is ironic about religion. Number55, let's say hypothetically I murder your best friend. Would you react to this injustice by saying, "It was a sin, but it's perfect in a way, I just don't understand it. God bless my lost friend"... Of course not, you would judge me critically, you would want me put in jail, you would want me punished. How can it be PERFECT? Are you saying that struggle, pain, genocide, nuclear destruction... all these things are perfect and justified, we just don't understand how it is perfect??
Not all people want to punish others. Im not going to start jumping into this argument, but there are religious people that forgive murderers/rapists/etc...
Originally posted by number55
Originally posted by candan02
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
God is not predictable or understandable there is always a reason. If you are a believer you would know that sin is perfect in a way that is not understandable
This is what is ironic about religion. Number55, let's say hypothetically I murder your best friend. Would you react to this injustice by saying, "It was a sin, but it's perfect in a way, I just don't understand it. God bless my lost friend"... Of course not, you would judge me critically, you would want me put in jail, you would want me punished. How can it be PERFECT? Are you saying that struggle, pain, genocide, nuclear destruction... all these things are perfect and justified, we just don't understand how it is perfect??
Not all people want to punish others. Im not going to start jumping into this argument, but there are religious people that forgive murderers/rapists/etc...
candan02
offline
offline
Let me get this straight your entire logic on this whole topic is based on since God is perfect he can only create perfect things and thouse perfect things aka humans only have the ability to do perfect things no decision in anything since perfection is all there is. I think you introduce the ability to do inperfect when you give someone a choice. See as a christian thats one thing that i dont understand and probably not meant to understand and its i totally believe in the omnipotence of God (every where at all times all knowing etc....) but i also believe that we truely have free will.
Oh and you cant call something contradictory if you dont know what God knows it might seem to us to contradict itself hence the thing that in dont understand described above but until you know it all you cant say something contradicts itself and we dont know it all ........and if we could figure GOD out by only using 10% of our brain than he really isnt that powerful.
I cant believe in evolution because something didnt grow out of nothing. Where did the 1st atom, electron, neutron come from. I believe God created everything ......what do u believe?????
Oh and you cant call something contradictory if you dont know what God knows it might seem to us to contradict itself hence the thing that in dont understand described above but until you know it all you cant say something contradicts itself and we dont know it all ........and if we could figure GOD out by only using 10% of our brain than he really isnt that powerful.
I cant believe in evolution because something didnt grow out of nothing. Where did the 1st atom, electron, neutron come from. I believe God created everything ......what do u believe?????
candan02
offline
offline
Originally posted by Logan1937
god is mankinds deadliest invention
so who created us not even us who created the 1st of anything ??? Who created the vaccume in space or the 1st molecule. If we are gona use logic then it is way more logical and easier to explain that God created instead of we evolved!!!
god is mankinds deadliest invention
so who created us not even us who created the 1st of anything ??? Who created the vaccume in space or the 1st molecule. If we are gona use logic then it is way more logical and easier to explain that God created instead of we evolved!!!
Last edited Mar 19, 2009 23:46:35
Originally posted by RIPPIN
Originally posted by thebigcali
Originally posted by number55
Originally posted by candan02
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
God is not predictable or understandable there is always a reason. If you are a believer you would know that sin is perfect in a way that is not understandable
This is what is ironic about religion. Number55, let's say hypothetically I murder your best friend. Would you react to this injustice by saying, "It was a sin, but it's perfect in a way, I just don't understand it. God bless my lost friend"... Of course not, you would judge me critically, you would want me put in jail, you would want me punished. How can it be PERFECT? Are you saying that struggle, pain, genocide, nuclear destruction... all these things are perfect and justified, we just don't understand how it is perfect??
Not all people want to punish others. Im not going to start jumping into this argument, but there are religious people that forgive murderers/rapists/etc...
Catholicism is a joke. An unfunny one too. Mostly awkward
Originally posted by thebigcali
Originally posted by number55
Originally posted by candan02
There is just one hole in your logic .....and its if i put sin into your reasoning then you would have to say sin is created by God and therfore ultimatly good.....and i disagree with that. Free will is not a black and white type of thing. You cant say well its not really free will if HE already knows because that would justify all sin and Christ on the cross redeeming us for our sin was a waste or good for nothing. Just because i'm Gods creation dosnt mean that i choose to do the most perfect thing in every situation. Thats crazy. I look at free will more like there are two roads GOD knows where both of them go but i decide which road to take.
God is not predictable or understandable there is always a reason. If you are a believer you would know that sin is perfect in a way that is not understandable
This is what is ironic about religion. Number55, let's say hypothetically I murder your best friend. Would you react to this injustice by saying, "It was a sin, but it's perfect in a way, I just don't understand it. God bless my lost friend"... Of course not, you would judge me critically, you would want me put in jail, you would want me punished. How can it be PERFECT? Are you saying that struggle, pain, genocide, nuclear destruction... all these things are perfect and justified, we just don't understand how it is perfect??
Not all people want to punish others. Im not going to start jumping into this argument, but there are religious people that forgive murderers/rapists/etc...
Catholicism is a joke. An unfunny one too. Mostly awkward
Candan, to be perfectly blunt with you, we're not on the same level intellectually. At best, you're as smart as me, but you're not good at forming grammatically correct sentences. Because of this, it is difficult to understand what you're saying. You use run-on sentences, you have a ton of misspellings and in general, when you attempt to recap my posts to discuss them, it sounds as though you completely misunderstood me. I'm going to leave this thread and not come back.
For the record, I'm an atheist. I rely on my own opinions, my own abstractions and my own ability to discern the truth in all situations. Like all talents in life, some people are better at this than others. My advice to you is to train your "critical thinking" attribute for the rest of the season and add some skill points to it. You're well-intentioned but we're just not communicating on the same level.
For the record, I'm an atheist. I rely on my own opinions, my own abstractions and my own ability to discern the truth in all situations. Like all talents in life, some people are better at this than others. My advice to you is to train your "critical thinking" attribute for the rest of the season and add some skill points to it. You're well-intentioned but we're just not communicating on the same level.
You are not logged in. Please log in if you want to post a reply.
