Honestly, I like ZS a lot. I have 15 TS and 15 ZS, but I feel like Agility/CD would be more helpful at this point than more vision.
Stone Mason
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a couple things
first i don't want to come off as PRO or AGAINST anything, I believe ZS is a great VA for FS's. Your cost break down was actually very informative.
second 66% pass ? really? i mean i've seen at most 65-70% on very pass heavy teams ... but an average of about 55% pass is more the norm, and i've seen team that run 80% (or more it was kinda crazy) with a 2-3 back system
and finally, i don't know if i can support it as a SS VA, one of the bigger concerns for the SS is the run, and i would want most if not all my VAs to be going to stopping the run on any given play. And then have it turn around and help out in the passing game too. Don't get me wrong, if i was a FS, it would be my second VA right after Quick (i've got a raging totem pole for agility) because of the obvious responsibilities set for a FS...
i was just wondering if you agreed with that at all sbuck143
first i don't want to come off as PRO or AGAINST anything, I believe ZS is a great VA for FS's. Your cost break down was actually very informative.
second 66% pass ? really? i mean i've seen at most 65-70% on very pass heavy teams ... but an average of about 55% pass is more the norm, and i've seen team that run 80% (or more it was kinda crazy) with a 2-3 back system
and finally, i don't know if i can support it as a SS VA, one of the bigger concerns for the SS is the run, and i would want most if not all my VAs to be going to stopping the run on any given play. And then have it turn around and help out in the passing game too. Don't get me wrong, if i was a FS, it would be my second VA right after Quick (i've got a raging totem pole for agility) because of the obvious responsibilities set for a FS...
i was just wondering if you agreed with that at all sbuck143
Stone Mason
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oh and i so very much would want to get change direction for my SS... except i feel it's more of a FS deal, and i've currently working a Super Vision piece, and i'm hoping to role a Closing Speed piece .... cause it's more SSish ...
*sigh* but change direction does make my totem pole bigger when i think about it
*sigh* but change direction does make my totem pole bigger when i think about it
Joe Buck
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Last season was the season of the run with power backs running wild. This season its coming back in line some. And you see isolated teams running it all the time but by and large teams pass way more than they run. I still stand behind my 66% number, but have no problem backing off that. Call it 50% and ZS still comes out ahead on the cost analysis.
I agree totally that it is a FS only VA. SS are only in zone in GLB in cover 2 or cover 3, and find themselves in man coverage or blitzing much more often than a FS does. You'll notice in all my posts in the subject I specifically refer to free safeties, never mention SS at all.
and dude stop talking bout your pole.
I agree totally that it is a FS only VA. SS are only in zone in GLB in cover 2 or cover 3, and find themselves in man coverage or blitzing much more often than a FS does. You'll notice in all my posts in the subject I specifically refer to free safeties, never mention SS at all.
and dude stop talking bout your pole.
Challenge Everything
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100% all of the time is better from a team standpoint than the shotty math presented on the previous page.
Those "equations" are so flawed it is unbearable to even rebuttal them.
Those "equations" are so flawed it is unbearable to even rebuttal them.
Joe Buck
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Originally posted by Challenge Everything
100% all of the time is better from a team standpoint than the shotty math presented on the previous page.
Those "equations" are so flawed it is unbearable to even rebuttal them.
If you'd like to have an intelligent discussion, Challenge, I'd love to hear what exactly the flaw is in the math or equations. We're here to exchange ideas and learn from each other, and frankly your responses accomplish neither....
What part do you think is flawed? I have not hidden the fact that the ZS stops working the instant the ball is in someone elses hands beside the QB.
To me it comes down to what is the most important role of a FS? It's Pass defense. ZS gives you a steroid boost during the most important part of pass defense - making sure the ball doesnt get caught.
For the argument that against the run ZS is worthless, I will gladly admit that is true. It is the goal of my DC to have teams run as much as they can against us, because we do an excellent job of shutting it down. Our pass defense is what needs the biggest boost, and I suspect for most everybody reading this, its what needs the biggest boost on your team as well.
If your defense is predicated on the FS playing such an integral role in run defense that having 10/10/10 always on is necessary for your team success, and that 5/5/5 just wouldnt even come close to cutting it, then by all means ignore ZS. But realize on passing plays before the ball is caught, i.e. when you are covering that receiver and trying to keep the QB from throwing to him or wanting to knock down or intercept that pass, you are still using just 10/10/10 where the FS with ZS&5/5/5 is using 20/20/20.
The tradeoff comes down to in my mind:
I am FS who plays Cover 1 or Cover 2 Zone most of the time. I am getting a boost. I have 30 VP to spend.
A) All the time I could have X boost to my skills, and on passing plays 4X while I am covering a receiver in my zone.
Or
B) I could have 2X boost to my skills all of the time.
if my primary role is pass defense I go with A. if my primary role is run support I go with B.
Trust me, I don't get a cut of all VP spent on Zone Specialist. I'm just trying to help the community wrap their head around its benefits and the tradeoffs involved.
100% all of the time is better from a team standpoint than the shotty math presented on the previous page.
Those "equations" are so flawed it is unbearable to even rebuttal them.
If you'd like to have an intelligent discussion, Challenge, I'd love to hear what exactly the flaw is in the math or equations. We're here to exchange ideas and learn from each other, and frankly your responses accomplish neither....
What part do you think is flawed? I have not hidden the fact that the ZS stops working the instant the ball is in someone elses hands beside the QB.
To me it comes down to what is the most important role of a FS? It's Pass defense. ZS gives you a steroid boost during the most important part of pass defense - making sure the ball doesnt get caught.
For the argument that against the run ZS is worthless, I will gladly admit that is true. It is the goal of my DC to have teams run as much as they can against us, because we do an excellent job of shutting it down. Our pass defense is what needs the biggest boost, and I suspect for most everybody reading this, its what needs the biggest boost on your team as well.
If your defense is predicated on the FS playing such an integral role in run defense that having 10/10/10 always on is necessary for your team success, and that 5/5/5 just wouldnt even come close to cutting it, then by all means ignore ZS. But realize on passing plays before the ball is caught, i.e. when you are covering that receiver and trying to keep the QB from throwing to him or wanting to knock down or intercept that pass, you are still using just 10/10/10 where the FS with ZS&5/5/5 is using 20/20/20.
The tradeoff comes down to in my mind:
I am FS who plays Cover 1 or Cover 2 Zone most of the time. I am getting a boost. I have 30 VP to spend.
A) All the time I could have X boost to my skills, and on passing plays 4X while I am covering a receiver in my zone.
Or
B) I could have 2X boost to my skills all of the time.
if my primary role is pass defense I go with A. if my primary role is run support I go with B.
Trust me, I don't get a cut of all VP spent on Zone Specialist. I'm just trying to help the community wrap their head around its benefits and the tradeoffs involved.
Last edited Mar 3, 2009 07:19:35
the7trumpets
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It seems that, as with many things in GLB, we really don't have all the information to be able to do a confident statistical breakdown.
The description states:
Zone Specialist - This player is best in zone coverage. Each level of Zone Specialist gives a +1% bonus to speed, agility, and vision when playing zone defense.
The question is "what does 'when playing zone defense' mean?" It looks to me like there are two extremes, and two compromise interpretations, and one outlier:
1. A player is playing zone defense if the play puts the player in a zone, period. If the play is drawn up that way, the player gets the bonus for the entire play, regardless of what happens during the play.
2. A player is playing zone defense if the play is drawn up that way, but only until such a time that an offensive player other than the QB receives possession of the ball. Thus, on run plays you get no bonus, and on pass plays, after the reception, you get no bonus. But you still get a bonus during the 'CB deflection, WR catch, CB catch' roll sequence, if you are there in time.
3. A player is playing zone defense if the play is drawn up that way, but only until the ball is touched by someone other than the QB. This means that after the first deflection roll, ZS is no longer active, the running game is similar.
4. A player is playing zone defense if the play is drawn up that way, but only until the ball is released by the QB. This means as soon as it is thrown, you lose the ZS bonus.
5: A player is playing zone for the entire play if the play has the player in a zone, but only on plays where offense chooses a pass play. If the offense chooses a run play, the bonus is never activated.
As near as I can tell, nobody has any data or information from Bort on which one of these is the correct definition, including me.
But if I were to guess (and I repeat, I have no data or knowledge that this is the way it is), then I would guess it is number 5. Closing Speed is the only VAs or SAs that I am aware of that is ever active for only a portion of a play. All the others seem to activate or not, for the entire length of the play. So it seems reasonable to assume this is like most of the others, where it activates for the entire play. #1 seems way to unbalanced and un-bort-like to me. My second guess would be #2, which actually makes the most real-world sense to me.
Looking at the math beforehand, it seems like if the definition is #1, #2, or #5, then it is definitely worth it. If it's #3 or #4, it's much more questionable. Like many things in GLB, we'll just never know.
I appreciate all the math and comments before, but from my thinking, the efficacy of zone specialist depends supremely on the interpretation of that description. If Bort has stated which one of these interpretations is correct, then please post a link.
The description states:
Zone Specialist - This player is best in zone coverage. Each level of Zone Specialist gives a +1% bonus to speed, agility, and vision when playing zone defense.
The question is "what does 'when playing zone defense' mean?" It looks to me like there are two extremes, and two compromise interpretations, and one outlier:
1. A player is playing zone defense if the play puts the player in a zone, period. If the play is drawn up that way, the player gets the bonus for the entire play, regardless of what happens during the play.
2. A player is playing zone defense if the play is drawn up that way, but only until such a time that an offensive player other than the QB receives possession of the ball. Thus, on run plays you get no bonus, and on pass plays, after the reception, you get no bonus. But you still get a bonus during the 'CB deflection, WR catch, CB catch' roll sequence, if you are there in time.
3. A player is playing zone defense if the play is drawn up that way, but only until the ball is touched by someone other than the QB. This means that after the first deflection roll, ZS is no longer active, the running game is similar.
4. A player is playing zone defense if the play is drawn up that way, but only until the ball is released by the QB. This means as soon as it is thrown, you lose the ZS bonus.
5: A player is playing zone for the entire play if the play has the player in a zone, but only on plays where offense chooses a pass play. If the offense chooses a run play, the bonus is never activated.
As near as I can tell, nobody has any data or information from Bort on which one of these is the correct definition, including me.
But if I were to guess (and I repeat, I have no data or knowledge that this is the way it is), then I would guess it is number 5. Closing Speed is the only VAs or SAs that I am aware of that is ever active for only a portion of a play. All the others seem to activate or not, for the entire length of the play. So it seems reasonable to assume this is like most of the others, where it activates for the entire play. #1 seems way to unbalanced and un-bort-like to me. My second guess would be #2, which actually makes the most real-world sense to me.
Looking at the math beforehand, it seems like if the definition is #1, #2, or #5, then it is definitely worth it. If it's #3 or #4, it's much more questionable. Like many things in GLB, we'll just never know.
I appreciate all the math and comments before, but from my thinking, the efficacy of zone specialist depends supremely on the interpretation of that description. If Bort has stated which one of these interpretations is correct, then please post a link.
Last edited Mar 4, 2009 07:45:43
regoob2
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Originally posted by sbuck143
Yeah I am a huge believer in Change Direction... HUGE!
CD sucks if you dont have the agility in the first place though.
Yeah I am a huge believer in Change Direction... HUGE!
CD sucks if you dont have the agility in the first place though.
Bladnach
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7trumpets- It has been stated by bort or someone a long time ago that it's pretty much like #2. You get a bonus on run plays until everything triggers "run mode" where the safety switches from zone to pursue ball carrier mode as far as sim mechanics work out. So that may only be for a few ticks but technically may help recognize run earlier since you get a vision boost (not that huge an advantage but something minor i guess. You get a bonus on pass plays until your safety again switches to run mode again where there is a ball carrier. Still should be fine while ball is in the air since the way the game sims, there is no ball carrier to be tackled.
divinevert
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I think the real question becomes where do things like Long Reach, Ballhawk, etc. factor into the decisionmaking.
Sometimes, I feel people overvalue the pure stats simply because they can see the numbers. But how do you compare the tangible in-game effects of the additional agility vs. the added chance to deflect passes or the chance to react to a tipped pass for an INT?
Ballhawk seems like a great skill, especially this season where passes are being thrown into tight coverage much more and PDs are going up it seems.
Sometimes, I feel people overvalue the pure stats simply because they can see the numbers. But how do you compare the tangible in-game effects of the additional agility vs. the added chance to deflect passes or the chance to react to a tipped pass for an INT?
Ballhawk seems like a great skill, especially this season where passes are being thrown into tight coverage much more and PDs are going up it seems.
hector
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If it is like the 2nd line, looks to me ZS is pretty much a first step trigger or a bonus to first step, if it already exists as SA. That would be important for a SS, even if it last @ the very beginning of the play. Basically that's what he needs to move him closer to the ball carrier (considering if the RB gets the hand off is very close to the QB).
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