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Forum > Position Talk > WR Club > Speedster SA's vs attributes required to fire em off...
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taurran
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If defensive players' vision was the problem with Head Fake, then Juke would be effected as well. I assume in a season or two when everyone is Juke based, it will get nerfed and everyone will jump on the Spin bandwagon. But, what then?

We all realize that 50 vision is relatively low for this game, right? It's like saying that your 50 speed player in Madden is fast. The only difference is everyone is still relatively weak in this game.

Last edited Sep 25, 2008 15:39:47
 
Air18
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Originally posted by knudlen
Originally posted by Air18



I have a running back. Headfake works better on people with LOW VISION. It is now season 5, everyone realizes vision is key for every position, especially DEFENSE. That is why headfake isn't as effective.


oh yea, thats why theres a entire team with no vision who won a championship. Thats why theres a thread with hundreds of replies in the main positional build called 'vision is useless'. thats why theres a dozen threads with a dozen dozen replies in the WR threads alone saying how vision is the most overrated stat. Thats why every guide on the d-line thread lists vision as the 4th or 5th most important stat, to be trained occasionally to 30 while you spend all your time getting str and agi to the 3rd soft cap.


I wasn't reffering to the WR's Vision, I was reffering to the D's vision when stopping headfake. In season 3, whem Headfake was most successful, most D never put points into vision. They may have trained it occasionally, but no one ever capped it or put points into. With respect to your assumption of the D-line forum, have you read Miked33 DE guide? The most successfull DE in GLB puts vision as the 3rd most important attribute, ahead of strength and tackling. However, that's besides the point. Maybe the difference between D's vision in Season 3 and their vision in Season 5 is, say, roughly 10 sp (I think they would have a lil more). Now, Headfake is MOST effective against defenders with low vision. Maybe that extra 10 points made the difference? I don't know for sure, you don't know for sure, only Bort does. Now don't go pointing fingers and complaining about a Nerf when the game may have just evolved and players have realized that Strength and Speed arn't the keys for success. Moreover, you forget that, I would say at least 25% of defenders, have their Agility at least to the soft cap. I know many DE's have it to the second cap aswell. That puts the average RB with, say 65 Agility (again being generous), against a D-linemen with 60 Agility. The lineman isn't going to get the pants juked out of him as frequent anymore. Lastly, there are some RB's out there that still have success with headfake, so clearly it has not become completely useless.
 
knudlen
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you might think thats what you meant but its not at all what you said
 
Air18
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Originally posted by knudlen
you might think thats what you meant but its not at all what you said


I know it's what I said because you seem to not have a negative response that's relevant to any specifics that I pointed out.
 
Viscount
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I still think WRs don't need vision, but from my own experience I think it defnitely helps defensive players. Last season my LB in a capped league had soft capped vision and lead the league in tackles, despite all his other attributes only in the 20s.
 
Djinnt
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Vision is necessary for QB, K, P, MLB, CB, safety, very useful on LOLB, any PR/KR, DE
I like it on elusive HBs too, they have to "find holes" more than any other O player

any other class and it has varying/arguable degrees of use
Probably forgot a class
Last edited Sep 25, 2008 17:05:55
 
Bukowski
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Originally posted by taurran
If defensive players' vision was the problem with Head Fake, then Juke would be effected as well. I assume in a season or two when everyone is Juke based, it will get nerfed and everyone will jump on the Spin bandwagon. But, what then?

We all realize that 50 vision is relatively low for this game, right? It's like saying that your 50 speed player in Madden is fast. The only difference is everyone is still relatively weak in this game.


This is exactly what I've been saying all day...

This is only Season 5. What happens in Season 10? If head fake already has problems working, then what happens in Season 10 - when everyone has every necessary attribute?

Think about that for a second.

If 60 Agility/7 Head Fake isn't enough to activate that skill right now.. Then just imagine in 5 more seasons.

Juke isn't going to work, because defenders will be capped out in agility/vision
Power Through won't work, because defenders will have plenty of tackling/strength.

It goes on and on..

This shouldn't be happening already, it is a serious issue that's not being talked about.
 
Viscount
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Originally posted by Bukowski
Originally posted by taurran

If defensive players' vision was the problem with Head Fake, then Juke would be effected as well. I assume in a season or two when everyone is Juke based, it will get nerfed and everyone will jump on the Spin bandwagon. But, what then?

We all realize that 50 vision is relatively low for this game, right? It's like saying that your 50 speed player in Madden is fast. The only difference is everyone is still relatively weak in this game.


This is exactly what I've been saying all day...

This is only Season 5. What happens in Season 10? If head fake already has problems working, then what happens in Season 10 - when everyone has every necessary attribute?

Think about that for a second.

If 60 Agility/7 Head Fake isn't enough to activate that skill right now.. Then just imagine in 5 more seasons.

Juke isn't going to work, because defenders will be capped out in agility/vision
Power Through won't work, because defenders will have plenty of tackling/strength.

It goes on and on..

This shouldn't be happening already, it is a serious issue that's not being talked about.


Well that's not really a serious issue it just means that the game will be more realistic. Also, I thought players can only really play for 10 seasons.

Anyway by that time the game tactics will be be more advanced, so it'll be all about good game planning rather than players attributes and SAs.
 
taurran
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I think head fake should be effective at every level. It should just decrease in effectiveness as vision and agility increase. However, the ball carrier should be able to counteract that with his own agility and head fake skill. No skill in this game should ever be useless.

Imagine if a player like Barry Sanders could only rely on one of his skills. He wouldn't have gone anywhere with spins or jukes alone. In my opinion, the perfect elusive back would have 8+ in every single SA. I'm not sure if this is possible with current point progression, but it should be every players ultimate goal.

After all this I'm not even sure as to the state of head fake. I've got 6 points in it on one of my backs and I could swear I've seen him have a defender pause slightly to go around them. Are we really sure that it's still not activating? I think it's more likely that the duration of the "freeze" effect was changed, or adjusted to a different reaction entirely. That makes more sense...
 
Air18
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Originally posted by Bukowski
Originally posted by taurran

If defensive players' vision was the problem with Head Fake, then Juke would be effected as well. I assume in a season or two when everyone is Juke based, it will get nerfed and everyone will jump on the Spin bandwagon. But, what then?

We all realize that 50 vision is relatively low for this game, right? It's like saying that your 50 speed player in Madden is fast. The only difference is everyone is still relatively weak in this game.


This is exactly what I've been saying all day...

This is only Season 5. What happens in Season 10? If head fake already has problems working, then what happens in Season 10 - when everyone has every necessary attribute?

Think about that for a second.

If 60 Agility/7 Head Fake isn't enough to activate that skill right now.. Then just imagine in 5 more seasons.

Juke isn't going to work, because defenders will be capped out in agility/vision
Power Through won't work, because defenders will have plenty of tackling/strength.

It goes on and on..

This shouldn't be happening already, it is a serious issue that's not being talked about.


You're forgetting about how long it takes to Lv and attribute declinations. After you hit lv 35, assuming you boost every season, you'll only gain 5 lvs or 25 SP. It takes a ridiculous amount of SP to get any attribute to a natural base of anywhere near 80 (i forget the exact numbers but somewhere near 5+sp for 1 point). And I think after 10 years your player's stats start declining. It's unrealistic to think that every player will have attributes maxed. So basically, the way I see it, if you want to have success with an Elusive player, keep at it. Keep pumping up agility, speed and SA's becuase if Defenses try and balance out (the way they are doing now to combat Power RB's), you'll end up with a big advantage in a few seasons. Moreover, it's unrealistic if you think about it to be able to run through 5 guys every carry - You can't expect to juke defenders everytime you get the ball.
 
Bukowski
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Originally posted by Bukowski
Season 2 HeadFake:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?pbp_id=3719765
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?pbp_id=3720692
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?pbp_id=3721933
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?pbp_id=3723504




Originally posted by Bukowski
Season 3 HeadFake:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?pbp_id=5745155
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?pbp_id=5745072
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?pbp_id=5748120


Season 5 HeadFake

Originally posted by jordan274
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=153555&pbp_id=1065320 - LB Head Fake
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=153555&pbp_id=1067553 - FS Froze for a bit
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=153555&pbp_id=1067763 - Obvious on the LB
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=153555&pbp_id=1068000 - Another Obvious
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=153555&pbp_id=1068666 - Another obvious
 
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I'm actually thinking Spin might be the way to go since alot of people say headfake isnt as effective anymore...
 
Bukowski
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Originally posted by VladtheImpaler1
I'm actually thinking Spin might be the way to go since alot of people say headfake isnt as effective anymore...


No one has ever posted a replay of Spin.

Why would you want to do that, when no one even knows if it works.
 
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might be a worthwhile gamble...? in games like this its a guessing game, no? (as to what is going to be the next big thing-be it attribute or SA)
as for replays of spin working, that might be hard with little dots...lol
[ Part of the reason I am a big fan of Bort implementing some sort of "special ability activation " notification during replays to notify the casual viewer that the WR he is watching catch the ball just made a "jumping catch" or a "spin-out of tackle", or a DT just made a BIG HIT on the QB... splat!] I think that would be cool.
 
Bukowski
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Originally posted by VladtheImpaler1
might be a worthwhile gamble...? in games like this its a guessing game, no? (as to what is going to be the next big thing-be it attribute or SA)
as for replays of spin working, that might be hard with little dots...lol
[ Part of the reason I am a big fan of Bort implementing some sort of "special ability activation " notification during replays to notify the casual viewer that the WR he is watching catch the ball just made a "jumping catch" or a "spin-out of tackle", or a DT just made a BIG HIT on the QB... splat!] I think that would be cool.


Yeah, that would be really cool..

I wish he would do that.
 
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