Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Firenze
Originally posted by PDO

Originally posted by Firenze


Originally posted by Rage Kinard



Originally posted by PDO







There was NEVER anything wrong with the DE/OT interaction before OT's got boosted for no apparent reason. DE's would rape shitty OT's, and were still able to be shut out be good ones. But Ken1 got really loud and Bort listened to the loudest instead of any amount of logic.


I disagree.

I would say there was never anything wrong with RDE/LOT interaction. There was a problem with LDE/ROT interaction because protect didn't work for ROT. In season 6, an 85 blocking, 75 strength, 75 agility, 55 speed OT did fine while playing LOT if he had 4 or 5 in protect. However, put the same OT at ROT against a really good speed/agility DE and he was cannon fotter.

The fix would have been simple. Make protect work for ROT as well as LOT.

What would the DE's counter SA to Protect be? Protect boosts 3 attributes (Speed, Agility and Blocking) on every snap.

DE's have nothing that gives them a 3 attribute bonus.

Protect is grossly overpowered. It shouldn't be given to both OT's, it should be eliminated completely.

DE's have tunnel vision.... which doesn't even appear to work.

And even that only gives 2 attributes. And the fact that it is only a chance to activate...it doesn't activate on every play.

Yup.

Bort's actually made OT's fucking idiot proof.... any OT that gives up a sack should be ashamed, because it's stupid easy to build an OT that'll never get beaten.

Originally posted by PDO
Originally posted by Firenze

Originally posted by PDO


Originally posted by Firenze



Originally posted by Rage Kinard




Originally posted by PDO








There was NEVER anything wrong with the DE/OT interaction before OT's got boosted for no apparent reason. DE's would rape shitty OT's, and were still able to be shut out be good ones. But Ken1 got really loud and Bort listened to the loudest instead of any amount of logic.


I disagree.

I would say there was never anything wrong with RDE/LOT interaction. There was a problem with LDE/ROT interaction because protect didn't work for ROT. In season 6, an 85 blocking, 75 strength, 75 agility, 55 speed OT did fine while playing LOT if he had 4 or 5 in protect. However, put the same OT at ROT against a really good speed/agility DE and he was cannon fotter.

The fix would have been simple. Make protect work for ROT as well as LOT.

What would the DE's counter SA to Protect be? Protect boosts 3 attributes (Speed, Agility and Blocking) on every snap.

DE's have nothing that gives them a 3 attribute bonus.

Protect is grossly overpowered. It shouldn't be given to both OT's, it should be eliminated completely.

DE's have tunnel vision.... which doesn't even appear to work.

And even that only gives 2 attributes. And the fact that it is only a chance to activate...it doesn't activate on every play.

Yup.

Bort's actually made OT's fucking idiot proof.... any OT that gives up a sack should be ashamed, because it's stupid easy to build an OT that'll never get beaten.

Not to mention Pass Rusher.

I'd just like to point out that Ken1 disappeared from this thread after being shown he was wrong. Again.

Originally posted by Ken1
Originally posted by tjsexy82

Originally posted by Ken1

There was a ton wrong with a line interaction that turned into a footrace. The changes that will be made will still not allow it to be a footrace, but instead give someone with the tools to shed a block a much better chance not to be immediately re-engaged (which is why block shedding hasn't worked well enough).

You always maintained people were saying that, but I don't remember hearing ANYONE who said speed should be the highest stat and I told you so back then. Everyone was saying that a pass-blocking OT should have agility and blocking as highest. You didn't get that then and apparently you don't get it now. Nobody said speed was most important. But at the same time, Bench Press isn't the main thing teams look at when drafting franchise LTs.

So is that why I see all the 200-240 pound OT's in the NFL? Oops, I don't. I see guys running 5.5 combine times considered top OT prospects (and yes, I did look that up)?

Actually, they were saying Agility should be their highest and the most extreme people said Speed the second highest. Not all the DE defenders, or not directly, but....

Basically, the argument was that 100 Speed DE's were stoppable-- just get 80 yourself, or the like. But that wasn't an acceptable solution, because linemen in real life are strong before fast.


Ken1:

It is true that some people were saying that OTs should get high speed in order to compete...however, that was not an effective strategy.

What you needed to stop those crazy fast/agile DEs was blocking and agility, in that order. Which sort of makes sense for an OT does it not? Great blocking technique and quick feet to stop high speed agility rushers?

Speed didn't need to be very high at all, it was 6th most important attribute for an ROT.

A good OT looked very much like you would imagine a good OT. Tons of blocking with excellent Strength and Agility. Then vision, confidence and speed rounding out the build, add SAs to taste.

An OT that looked like that in Season 6 was extremely effective.

But most OTs did not look like that. So we nerfed DEs.

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by Ken1

Originally posted by tjsexy82


Originally posted by Ken1


There was a ton wrong with a line interaction that turned into a footrace. The changes that will be made will still not allow it to be a footrace, but instead give someone with the tools to shed a block a much better chance not to be immediately re-engaged (which is why block shedding hasn't worked well enough).

You always maintained people were saying that, but I don't remember hearing ANYONE who said speed should be the highest stat and I told you so back then. Everyone was saying that a pass-blocking OT should have agility and blocking as highest. You didn't get that then and apparently you don't get it now. Nobody said speed was most important. But at the same time, Bench Press isn't the main thing teams look at when drafting franchise LTs.

So is that why I see all the 200-240 pound OT's in the NFL? Oops, I don't. I see guys running 5.5 combine times considered top OT prospects (and yes, I did look that up)?

Actually, they were saying Agility should be their highest and the most extreme people said Speed the second highest. Not all the DE defenders, or not directly, but....

Basically, the argument was that 100 Speed DE's were stoppable-- just get 80 yourself, or the like. But that wasn't an acceptable solution, because linemen in real life are strong before fast.


Ken1:

It is true that some people were saying that OTs should get high speed in order to compete...however, that was not an effective strategy.

What you needed to stop those crazy fast/agile DEs was blocking and agility, in that order. Which sort of makes sense for an OT does it not? Great blocking technique and quick feet to stop high speed agility rushers?

Speed didn't need to be very high at all, it was 6th most important attribute for an ROT.

A good OT looked very much like you would imagine a good OT. Tons of blocking with excellent Strength and Agility, vision, confidence and speed rounding out the build, as SAs to taste.

An OT that looked like that in Season 6 was extremely effective.

But most OTs did not look like that.

Most OT's looked like this:

120 strength, 100 blocking. PANCAKE MACHINE WHOO!!!

Nothing else.

They're fat, they don't need speed and agility LOL.

For utterly ridiculous reasons, Bort decided that that should be fine... and made the changes. And then to make it even worse, most of them figured out that instead of spending in the 5 cap, they could 2 cap agility and never be beaten.

Originally posted by PDO
Originally posted by Firenze

Originally posted by Rage Kinard


Originally posted by PDO






There was NEVER anything wrong with the DE/OT interaction before OT's got boosted for no apparent reason. DE's would rape shitty OT's, and were still able to be shut out be good ones. But Ken1 got really loud and Bort listened to the loudest instead of any amount of logic.


I disagree.

I would say there was never anything wrong with RDE/LOT interaction. There was a problem with LDE/ROT interaction because protect didn't work for ROT. In season 6, an 85 blocking, 75 strength, 75 agility, 55 speed OT did fine while playing LOT if he had 4 or 5 in protect. However, put the same OT at ROT against a really good speed/agility DE and he was cannon fotter.

The fix would have been simple. Make protect work for ROT as well as LOT.

What would the DE's counter SA to Protect be? Protect boosts 3 attributes (Speed, Agility and Blocking) on every snap.

DE's have nothing that gives them a 3 attribute bonus.

Protect is grossly overpowered. It shouldn't be given to both OT's, it should be eliminated completely.

DE's have tunnel vision.... which doesn't even appear to work.

Tunnel vision appears to give a speed boost to DEs, however due to constant blocking the DE rarely gets to access his full speed. So it's not that TV doesn't work, it's that it just doesn't apply.

Yet another case of crappy game design by Bort.

Originally posted by fallingmercury
Originally posted by PDO

Originally posted by Firenze


Originally posted by Rage Kinard



Originally posted by PDO







There was NEVER anything wrong with the DE/OT interaction before OT's got boosted for no apparent reason. DE's would rape shitty OT's, and were still able to be shut out be good ones. But Ken1 got really loud and Bort listened to the loudest instead of any amount of logic.


I disagree.

I would say there was never anything wrong with RDE/LOT interaction. There was a problem with LDE/ROT interaction because protect didn't work for ROT. In season 6, an 85 blocking, 75 strength, 75 agility, 55 speed OT did fine while playing LOT if he had 4 or 5 in protect. However, put the same OT at ROT against a really good speed/agility DE and he was cannon fotter.

The fix would have been simple. Make protect work for ROT as well as LOT.

What would the DE's counter SA to Protect be? Protect boosts 3 attributes (Speed, Agility and Blocking) on every snap.

DE's have nothing that gives them a 3 attribute bonus.

Protect is grossly overpowered. It shouldn't be given to both OT's, it should be eliminated completely.

DE's have tunnel vision.... which doesn't even appear to work.

Tunnel vision appears to give a speed boost to DEs, however due to constant blocking the DE rarely gets to access his full speed. So it's not that TV doesn't work, it's that it just doesn't apply.

Very good chance you're right here.

Something needs to be done so that players don't try to hold. I understand you can't put in a penalty for it because of coding, but it shouldn't be all that hard to make it impossible to interact with a guy who's already around you.

Originally posted by PDO
Originally posted by tautology

Originally posted by Ken1


Originally posted by tjsexy82



Originally posted by Ken1



There was a ton wrong with a line interaction that turned into a footrace. The changes that will be made will still not allow it to be a footrace, but instead give someone with the tools to shed a block a much better chance not to be immediately re-engaged (which is why block shedding hasn't worked well enough).

You always maintained people were saying that, but I don't remember hearing ANYONE who said speed should be the highest stat and I told you so back then. Everyone was saying that a pass-blocking OT should have agility and blocking as highest. You didn't get that then and apparently you don't get it now. Nobody said speed was most important. But at the same time, Bench Press isn't the main thing teams look at when drafting franchise LTs.

So is that why I see all the 200-240 pound OT's in the NFL? Oops, I don't. I see guys running 5.5 combine times considered top OT prospects (and yes, I did look that up)?

Actually, they were saying Agility should be their highest and the most extreme people said Speed the second highest. Not all the DE defenders, or not directly, but....

Basically, the argument was that 100 Speed DE's were stoppable-- just get 80 yourself, or the like. But that wasn't an acceptable solution, because linemen in real life are strong before fast.


Ken1:

It is true that some people were saying that OTs should get high speed in order to compete...however, that was not an effective strategy.

What you needed to stop those crazy fast/agile DEs was blocking and agility, in that order. Which sort of makes sense for an OT does it not? Great blocking technique and quick feet to stop high speed agility rushers?

Speed didn't need to be very high at all, it was 6th most important attribute for an ROT.

A good OT looked very much like you would imagine a good OT. Tons of blocking with excellent Strength and Agility, vision, confidence and speed rounding out the build, as SAs to taste.

An OT that looked like that in Season 6 was extremely effective.

But most OTs did not look like that.

Most OT's looked like this:

120 strength, 100 blocking. PANCAKE MACHINE WHOO!!!

Nothing else.

They're fat, they don't need speed and agility LOL.

For utterly ridiculous reasons, Bort decided that that should be fine... and made the changes. And then to make it even worse, most of them figured out that instead of spending in the 5 cap, they could 2 cap agility and never be beaten.

Actually, in season 6 most OTs were closer to 100-110 strength, 70 blocking, 48 agility.

And they (predictably) got owned.

I am finding DEs are getting loose with sufficient frequency, and they actually score some sacks now that the QB doesn't magically unload the ball a split second before the sack anymore.

In season 6 I saw loads of OTs with 25 agility getting owned. Then they got 55-65 agility and were invincible.

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by PDO

Originally posted by tautology


Originally posted by Ken1



Originally posted by tjsexy82




Originally posted by Ken1




There was a ton wrong with a line interaction that turned into a footrace. The changes that will be made will still not allow it to be a footrace, but instead give someone with the tools to shed a block a much better chance not to be immediately re-engaged (which is why block shedding hasn't worked well enough).

You always maintained people were saying that, but I don't remember hearing ANYONE who said speed should be the highest stat and I told you so back then. Everyone was saying that a pass-blocking OT should have agility and blocking as highest. You didn't get that then and apparently you don't get it now. Nobody said speed was most important. But at the same time, Bench Press isn't the main thing teams look at when drafting franchise LTs.

So is that why I see all the 200-240 pound OT's in the NFL? Oops, I don't. I see guys running 5.5 combine times considered top OT prospects (and yes, I did look that up)?

Actually, they were saying Agility should be their highest and the most extreme people said Speed the second highest. Not all the DE defenders, or not directly, but....

Basically, the argument was that 100 Speed DE's were stoppable-- just get 80 yourself, or the like. But that wasn't an acceptable solution, because linemen in real life are strong before fast.


Ken1:

It is true that some people were saying that OTs should get high speed in order to compete...however, that was not an effective strategy.

What you needed to stop those crazy fast/agile DEs was blocking and agility, in that order. Which sort of makes sense for an OT does it not? Great blocking technique and quick feet to stop high speed agility rushers?

Speed didn't need to be very high at all, it was 6th most important attribute for an ROT.

A good OT looked very much like you would imagine a good OT. Tons of blocking with excellent Strength and Agility, vision, confidence and speed rounding out the build, as SAs to taste.

An OT that looked like that in Season 6 was extremely effective.

But most OTs did not look like that.

Most OT's looked like this:

120 strength, 100 blocking. PANCAKE MACHINE WHOO!!!

Nothing else.

They're fat, they don't need speed and agility LOL.

For utterly ridiculous reasons, Bort decided that that should be fine... and made the changes. And then to make it even worse, most of them figured out that instead of spending in the 5 cap, they could 2 cap agility and never be beaten.

Actually, in season 6 most OTs were closer to 100-110 strength, 70 blocking, 48 agility.

And they (predictably) got owned.


I wasn't too far off . The build I have up there would basically be where those guys would have taken their builds to today.

The fact that they weren't told to fix their builds by Bort is beyond stupid.

Originally posted by tautology


I am finding DEs are getting loose with sufficient frequency, and they actually score some sacks now that the QB doesn't magically unload the ball a split second before the sack anymore.

Except:

The QB either A) becomes invincible while throwing the ball, or B) throws the ball in less than a tick.

Either of which is stupid.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=2610581

I could find 3-4 examples of this in any of Scorecoff's sims.

It's compounded by holding.

Originally posted by Ken1
Originally posted by PDO

Originally posted by Maddoc


Originally posted by PDO



Originally posted by Dolphan9954




Originally posted by Buckeyes33





i dont know why people are bitching now. all it is, is that DEs are more realistic. they aren't getting 74 sacks a season. the best are getting maybe 40 now against good teams in a good league.

look at USA Pro, the leader is on pace for like 24. that is pretty good imo

Over half of which took place in a single game. Swing and a miss.


This is pretty much exactly why the D-Line got fucked in the ass in the first place, people flip out over high stats without looking at where they came from.

There was NEVER anything wrong with the DE/OT interaction before OT's got boosted for no apparent reason. DE's would rape shitty OT's, and were still able to be shut out be good ones. But Ken1 got really loud and Bort listened to the loudest instead of any amount of logic.

Now you're slandering me. There was no realism in the DE/OT interaction that existed. There will be improvements to the pass rush, but don't expect to see stratospheric numbers, because ridiculous numbers were, in fact, coming from relatively even matchups.

And I wasn't the only one really loud. The game was about sacks, first and foremost. DE supporters were saying that to prevent that OT's should have to have Agility and Speed as their highest stats.

There was a ton wrong with a line interaction that turned into a footrace. The changes that will be made will still not allow it to be a footrace, but instead give someone with the tools to shed a block a much better chance not to be immediately re-engaged (which is why block shedding hasn't worked well enough).

All that is lying. As an OT owner, the best Pass Blocking OTs were Blocking and Agility heavy. If you had say 90 blocking, 70 strength, 70 agility and 50 speed, you could stop the Best DEs of that day. There was much more realism then there is now and pushing for realism at only 1 position is ASININE. Bort FORCING realistic stats for DEs has thrown off the balance of the game. I don't know how you got to be a tester(who am I kidding, I do, by kissing ass) but it's a joke you are one when you don't have the simple skills needed to see a problem. If QBs can pass for 7000 yards and RBs can rush for 3000-4000 yards, the best DEs should be able to have 40-50 sacks.

A big part of the reason why OTs used to have no agility, is that Tpat's guide (the one from the official FAQ/guides link above) says that agility isn't a big attribute for OTs. So legions of new people routinely made OTs with 25 agility.

I brought it up with Tpat and others that this was a major problem but he didn't bother to update anything. I think if the guide had agility as the #1 or #2 most important stat we would have had more competent OTs to begin with and maybe not the uber-nerfing.

Regardless....


My DEs had 7 hurries and one sack against 37 passing attempts today.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/game.pl?game_id=477421

Opponent has a good team and I was out-leveled by a couple levels at each position.

My DEs have never been elite pass-rushers, but have always been competent.

I have a hard time screaming about lack of productivity even though those numbers are a little meager.....is that about what we should expect, or do we want more?