Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
What it seems nobody has asked is, what's his deal? Is he a RQB that can throw or a throwing QB that can run?

you know that these experiments don't work consistenly in upper leagues right?

Originally posted by Kenshinzen
you know that these experiments don't work consistenly in upper leagues right?

Depends on the build and the OC (or DC). Also the league. For example, there's a huge difference in how a RQB plays in Casual vs Regular leagues. They tend to do much better in Casual, overall. In Regular leagues you cannot have unreal expectations. This game was not designed for Mahomes or Vick or Cunningham or Lamar or those types of QB's. I suspect the devs reckoned if they made them too powerful then that's all anyone would build and they'd likely wreck the game. Whatever their reason, generally speaking, you can be very successful if you use them right (RQB's)... both running and throwing. But you cannot expect them to preform to NFL standards. As for Casual leagues, RQB's work fine there. I don't even consider them 'experiments' in those leagues. I ran a team with 2 of them and no other QB's so we HAD to learn how to use them. They both had excellent seasons, both rushing and passing, and we lost in the Championship. Not bad for my 2nd season ever as a Casual OC... but it sure taught me to look at RQB's a LOT differently. I no longer thought of them as "only good for running".
I seriously believe Bort has built in some 'passing help' buffers for RQB's, as I posted previously. I really do. Based on replays and scouting that I've done over all these many seasons I can't explain why a RQB, with less than 50 in passing, can throw just as good as a passing QB (with 170+ passing skill) does on short and mid ranged routes unless Bort boosted their (RQB's) passing abilities. Where they seem to suffer are long throws (over 10-15 yards). Which, given what we know about Bort's mind on this game, makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
What it seems nobody has asked is, what's his deal? Is he a RQB that can throw or a throwing QB that can run? I ask because of the high speed as opposed to most regular "ball tossin only" builds. Since both your QB builds are using the RQB archetype, I must ask what you see them doing.
If you're doing a runner that can throw some passes, switch vision and throwing with speed and agility. Like this;
Agility - 90-100
Speed - 100-110
Vision - 80
Throwing 80
See if you can squeeze more strength and carrying out of the deal. Throwing isn't as big a deal for RQB's as I think they get a Bort bump when passing. You want more than 50, for sure... but can likely do just fine with 70 or even 60. I've had RQB's throw without much issues even with minimal passing skill so if you can hit 50, I think he'll preform just fine with the right OC and playbook.

A RQB that's a throw 1st, run 2nd, I think you're close... but you do need more Strength. Maybe lower your carrying a little? I mean, if the object is to throw THEN run then you'll be doing more of the former and less of the latter.

Yes.....you nailed it...its more of a passing QB that can run....maybe not run, maybe more MOVE....Not thinking designed run plays here..thinking more high scramble frequency and some take off and run...so the success of the build would depends on a few things: of course the QB's overall build quality and having just the right amount of points in different areas. It would depends on the QB's tactic set up, it would also depend on the offensive dots around him and of course the offensive tactics. I of course started fiddling with this build when I was looking to run a team and had a VERY specific offensive game plan, one that I felt was a touch different than usual.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Depends on the build and the OC (or DC). Also the league. For example, there's a huge difference in how a RQB plays in Casual vs Regular leagues. They tend to do much better in Casual, overall. In Regular leagues you cannot have unreal expectations. This game was not designed for Mahomes or Vick or Cunningham or Lamar or those types of QB's. I suspect the devs reckoned if they made them too powerful then that's all anyone would build and they'd likely wreck the game. Whatever their reason, generally speaking, you can be very successful if you use them right (RQB's)... both running and throwing. But you cannot expect them to preform to NFL standards. As for Casual leagues, RQB's work fine there. I don't even consider them 'experiments' in those leagues. I ran a team with 2 of them and no other QB's so we HAD to learn how to use them. They both had excellent seasons, both rushing and passing, and we lost in the Championship. Not bad for my 2nd season ever as a Casual OC... but it sure taught me to look at RQB's a LOT differently. I no longer thought of them as "only good for running".
I seriously believe Bort has built in some 'passing help' buffers for RQB's, as I posted previously. I really do. Based on replays and scouting that I've done over all these many seasons I can't explain why a RQB, with less than 50 in passing, can throw just as good as a passing QB (with 170+ passing skill) does on short and mid ranged routes unless Bort boosted their (RQB's) passing abilities. Where they seem to suffer are long throws (over 10-15 yards). Which, given what we know about Bort's mind on this game, makes perfect sense.

This is the area I struggling with...how much strength is necessary for 0-10 yards and 10-15 yards and 15+yards.....How much vision is really needed for those same ranges or does the range of the play not really matter for vision where its just that important to have high vision. How much confidence is needed if a QB is just throwing mainly between 0-10 yards and maybe a small amount 10-15yrds? And of course, throwing itself, I know that you don't need 170 in throwing to have success at shorter distances, but whats to much and whats to little.
I've not built many QB's...I've built true RQB's with success and I've built a true passer with success..And I'm also unsure how many BT's I need to shoot for end build when i'm toying with my VPB.

Originally posted by XtremeT13
This is the area I struggling with...how much strength is necessary for 0-10 yards and 10-15 yards and 15+yards.....

Waaaaay, waaaaay, waaaaaaaaaaaay more strength than 30. So much more. Frankly I'm not sure what 111 vision will do but I know what 90 strength will do, and if you don't have at least 85 strength, you don't have a QB. I can't make that clear enough.

I'll give you the gold standard hint for your final question, and I might be giving away the farm with this: when passing dynamics were first created for GLB, there was no 58 points of EQ, nothing like that at all, and the dynamics for QB has not changed since.

Its fairly simple to make a Michael Vick or Lamar Jackson type dual threat QB. Now, to make one who can win MVP in NAPL three seasons straight and win the NAPL Championship game and MVP, that takes a whole team build and philosophy, a lot of work and a ton of trial and error- trial and error which continues, as our goals are larger than those.

It seems most teams aren't even in the market for a player like that. The majority of your passing game will be compressed into 20 yards or so (which IMHO is not all that bad of an idea anyhow with all the INT-hungry CBs in GLB), your QB will often times go completely off script (leading to highlights but also missed plays) and the result is a player who can be unbeatable one game and crummy in the next. Its not the most consistent type player but its a player who can be phenomenal in the right situations. If you have the right offense built, a player like that is dangerous. Not everyone is trying to build that type of offense though, so its not easy to find teams who can really utilize a dual threat QB.

On the other hand, a QB with good movement skills (not a runner) should be able to fit in well to most offenses. Most agents don't seem to give the QB enough agility, and they end up with a clumsy statuesque QB IMO

Originally posted by XtremeT13
This is the area I struggling with...how much strength is necessary for 0-10 yards and 10-15 yards and 15+yards.....How much vision is really needed for those same ranges or does the range of the play not really matter for vision where its just that important to have high vision. How much confidence is needed if a QB is just throwing mainly between 0-10 yards and maybe a small amount 10-15yrds? And of course, throwing itself, I know that you don't need 170 in throwing to have success at shorter distances, but whats to much and whats to little.
I've not built many QB's...I've built true RQB's with success and I've built a true passer with success..And I'm also unsure how many BT's I need to shoot for end build when i'm toying with my VPB.

With a RQB, I think you can do just fine with 50 strength. Up to 70 if you wish. As I said, I think RQB's get a Bort boost because of what I see when they throw. I mean, guys with 30 in throwing being pretty accurate with their throws as long as they weren't tossing bombs. Generally speaking, with the RQB, it's not that you can't throw long passes... it's that they're more likely to be off target and harder to catch (wide to the side [bad throw] or high or low). More Strength helps that but, again, I think Bort just made RQB's with things regular QB's don't get from the game... likely a (accuracy) boost for short and medium throws but a penalty to long throws. So the WR's need very good catching, jumping, and vision skills to work well with a throwing RQB. My take? 80-90 vision is fine. Most of your throws will be 15 yards or less in range. 50-70 strength is fine... again, for the same reason as Vision. Throwing between 50 and 70 is ok. More would help but I think you can get by with it in that range. The big number should be Agility. Both to get away from sacks, but to also get up to speed as fast as possible. Speed around 100 should work fine. You're not looking for Barry Sanders with an arm... just someone that can avoid the sack and turn a negative into a positive. If he only gets you 5 yards when he scrambles that beats -5 yard from a sack any day. That 50 to 70 strength will also help you break a few tackles as well.
BT's totally depend on how many AEQ and if you shop or build or both. I wouldn't worry about the BT's as you can get that figured out as you go. Average time I switch to light training for BT's for a 4 AEQ dot, is around day/age 170. Sooner if I had a bad time shopping... later if I had a good time.

Originally posted by XtremeT13
This is the area I struggling with...how much strength is necessary for 0-10 yards and 10-15 yards and 15+yards.....How much vision is really needed for those same ranges or does the range of the play not really matter for vision where its just that important to have high vision.

Remember that the game is a computer program that is entirely math based. A QB with 100 Strength will throw a little 5 years dump off better than a QB with 50 Strength even though they can both throw that far.

The same goes for Vision. There's a calculated number called pass quality. It's primarily Throwing, but also Vision. It gets modified downward based on the situation.

Confidence offsets pressure applied by the D-line and blitzers. The more pressure you feel the more pass quality goes down.

Strength determines max throw distance. The closet the pass is to your max throw distance, the more pass quality goes down.

The lower your pass quality goes, the less likely it is to be caught even if the ball technically gets there.

Strength also slightly modifies the ball speed when thrown, although much less than the bullet/loft slider. Slower throws get intercepted more easily. The defender has more time to get into optimal position.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Remember that the game is a computer program that is entirely math based. A QB with 100 Strength will throw a little 5 years dump off better than a QB with 50 Strength even though they can both throw that far.

The same goes for Vision. There's a calculated number called pass quality. It's primarily Throwing, but also Vision. It gets modified downward based on the situation.

Confidence offsets pressure applied by the D-line and blitzers. The more pressure you feel the more pass quality goes down.

Strength determines max throw distance. The closet the pass is to your max throw distance, the more pass quality goes down.

The lower your pass quality goes, the less likely it is to be caught even if the ball technically gets there.

Strength also slightly modifies the ball speed when thrown, although much less than the bullet/loft slider. Slower throws get intercepted more easily. The defender has more time to get into optimal position.



I agree but also consider hidden boosts that Bort has doled out here and there (as well as hidden penalties). After all the replays I've seen of low throwing skill RQB's tossin bullets to receivers within 10 to 15 yards... throws which, if I compare a RQB straight up with a well built passing QB, don't make sense. Theoretically the throws should be wobbly, slow, weak, and often off target if strength and throwing and vision skills make such a huge difference... especially when they vary so much. But it's not that way. At least not on the short to medium throws. Long throws, sure. Plenty of bad passes to hang your head over (wide open targets missed). I think Bort tilted throwing, at least short and medium throws, in favor of RQB's to make up the difference... at least somewhat. I wouldn't honestly compare a well built throwing QB and his success to a RQB and his success. I think the throwing QB will always be more consistent. But I also think people look at a RQB's skill set and can only see 'run'.

Hey can you guys just post the tldr versions of all the chit you just posted

Originally posted by Bluesman
Hey can you guys just post the tldr versions of all the chit you just posted

So, 1st the caveat. Dots are level 42. Opponent is CPU. But what you should pay attention to is the recognition of the open receiver and the quality of the throw;
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3109599&pbp_id=20320

Hits the TE in stride. On target and on time. Throwing skill is in the very low 30's. having seen these kinds of throws from both RQB's and passing QB's I can tell you that's a pretty dang decent throw. Our passing QB has 4 times as much throwing skill and close to the same strength and much better vision. So I've seen so many RQB throws like that that I simply believe Bort has to have something... something that 'helps' a RQB make short and medium throws pretty dang good. I wouldn't want to throw 50 passes with one... but I can easily see 3 or 4, up to 20 or so... and I think you'd be happy with the results.

Now here's where I would lean on the better OC's in the game... what I can't say is if anyone has tried that in WL level. So, maybe there things don't work the same... or maybe the dot quality is so high that QB's pretty much die anyways up there (I've heard rumors)... but I've seen it work plenty at the top levels just below WL and it works pretty dang good in Casual if the OC knows their stuff.

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