Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
LB' generally need not apply (unless you build your tiny... in which case, IMHO, you've already screwed the pooch).
Most LBs have around or sub ~100 strength unless they have strength equipment, but most Power backs have north of 100 strength. The rest of your concerns are valid.

I'll submit Pocket Crusher .. pass rushing is pretty nonexistent anyway but I use evasive pass rush even on my strength lineman

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
The actual catch roll is separate

Edit: wow, day late & a buck short

So if the WR wins the get the ball first roll, acts first but misses the catch, sure hands has a 75% chance to activate and re-roll the get the ball first roll? or the catch roll?

Originally posted by F00tballJunkie
So if the WR wins the get the ball first roll, acts first but misses the catch, sure hands has a 75% chance to activate and re-roll the get the ball first roll? or the catch roll?

In theory yes, All you'd need to do is out-build a DB, like... 160+ Speed, 90+ Vision, 90+ Agility, 80+ Jumping, and 80+ Catching. Support that with VAs, and um, maybe Route Run SA would help?

It might be interesting to see how much of a factor Speed actually is in that roll. The rest of the numbers are doable with a Possession WR, if you ignore Speed. Or use a Dual Threat TE and be 6'8 also.

Originally posted by F00tballJunkie
So if the WR wins the get the ball first roll, acts first but misses the catch, sure hands has a 75% chance to activate and re-roll the get the ball first roll? or the catch roll?

The "Get Ball First" roll is the battle roll between the CB and WR. This is what matters. This CANNOT be re-rolled by the WR with sure hands. I often refer to this as the PD vs anti-PD battle roll personally, though I guess that isn't the best name for it.

If the WR wins he gets to do a catch ball check FIRST which is easy to win with a plateau dot (generally). This is the WR vs the sim (not vs the CB, though there's an adjustment from the "get ball fast" roll possibly which marks the bar to clear harder)This is what sure hands would let you re-roll. Sure Hands only works on the catch roll (catch check) and re-rolls this portion if you lose and the VA fires.

If the CB wins he gets to do a PD check FIRST This is the CB vs the sim (not vs the WR, though there's an adjustment from the "get ball fast" roll possibly which makes the bar to clear harder). The PD check is logically a little harder than the catch roll, though this would be the step for Long Reach, so perhaps it's not worth it.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
In theory yes, All you'd need to do is out-build a DB, like... 160+ Speed, 90+ Vision, 90+ Agility, 80+ Jumping, and 80+ Catching. Support that with VAs, and um, maybe Route Run SA would help?

It might be interesting to see how much of a factor Speed actually is in that roll. The rest of the numbers are doable with a Possession WR, if you ignore Speed. Or use a Dual Threat TE and be 6'8 also.



Bort literally laid this out in his earlier quote.

Catching > Jumping > Vision = Strength are the 4 attributes in this battle roll, along with SA's (sticky hands, jump catch, etc), VA's (poss receiver, mr reliable, etc), and catch%. Also height (which is a +vision and +jumping modifier) helps as well. I wish peeps would stop making all their WR's 5'8"...

And yes, possession receivers work well in GLB. I'd consider 120 SPD to be around the minimum target.

It's also worth noting that bort's quote doesn't really talk about positioning, but the position of the CB and WR when they battle, definitely effects their battle roll.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Bort literally laid this out in his earlier quote.

Catching > Jumping > Vision = Strength are the 4 attributes in this battle roll, along with SA's (sticky hands, jump catch, etc), VA's (poss receiver, mr reliable, etc), and catch%. Also height (which is a +vision and +jumping modifier) helps as well. I wish peeps would stop making all their WR's 5'8"...

And yes, possession receivers work well in GLB. I'd consider 120 SPD to be around the minimum target.

It's also worth noting that bort's quote doesn't really talk about positioning, but the position of the CB and WR when they battle, definitely effects their battle roll.

So, it's this roll to see who goes first, and then a roll to actually do it using basically the same attributes an abilities?

That seems odd.

I'll have to investigate that tomorrow

Originally posted by Bort
It is fairly complicated as there are lots of situations, but the general gist is (if I'm the CB):
- I have to see the ball is coming in the first place (vision check)
- I have to get into position near enough the the ball to interact with it (speed/agility etc)
- I have to check if I am even going to get a chance to interact with the ball (Int check? No? Swat check instead?)
- If I'm near the WR, I have to fight with him to see who gets a chance at the ball (my roll vs his roll)
- If I win, I get to intercept or swat the ball. (depends on first roll type that succeeded, and if the WR gives me trouble catching it)
- If I lose, the receiver gets to try and catch the ball. It's all up to him now, though my being close by makes it harder on him.
- If the receiver fails to catch the ball, I get once more chance to try and intercept it if I am close enough.
- If the receiver catches it, now I've got to tackle him. Here's my chance to knock it loose with a good hit

One thing not mentioned is that, even IF the WR wins the 'I get 1st crack at the catch' roll, he doesn't get a free pass at his catch roll. The defender, in the area, has a negative effect against him making that catch (contested catch in this case). Also, ANY other defender that is considered in the "range of influence" also has a negative effect on the WR making the catch. It adds up. It's why you see dropped passes or INC's when passes are thrown into multiple coverage... and why a WR has a much better chance of making the catch when he's only single covered. So I would think Sure Hands would combat that. However, in Wise's defense, Sure Hands doesn't increase the possibility of making the catch... only giving you a second shot at it. And, since there's no "balloon" to let you know it fired, there's no way to know exactly how much (or little) the VA helps. IMHO, any VA that simply allows a 2nd chance at something I find sketchy because if you already failed once, it's highly unlikely you'll succeed when given a second chance with the same situation (penalties and bonuses applied). Long Reach and Sure Tackler fall into this category as well. (Caveat, I usually get Long Reach for my DB's and coverage LB's and have always wondered if that was smart.)

Originally posted by RyanCane26
Originally posted by Bort
It is fairly complicated as there are lots of situations, but the general gist is (if I'm the CB):
- I have to see the ball is coming in the first place (vision check)
- I have to get into position near enough the the ball to interact with it (speed/agility etc)
- I have to check if I am even going to get a chance to interact with the ball (Int check? No? Swat check instead?)
- If I'm near the WR, I have to fight with him to see who gets a chance at the ball (my roll vs his roll)
- If I win, I get to intercept or swat the ball. (depends on first roll type that succeeded, and if the WR gives me trouble catching it)
- If I lose, the receiver gets to try and catch the ball. It's all up to him now, though my being close by makes it harder on him.
- If the receiver fails to catch the ball, I get once more chance to try and intercept it if I am close enough.
- If the receiver catches it, now I've got to tackle him. Here's my chance to knock it loose with a good hit

Thanks, that is what I was referring to, but I've posted it so many times, I really didn't feel like finding it again.

"My roll vs. his roll". That is what I was referring to. Every roll in this interaction is considered a 'catch check roll' for the WR. I remember that clearly. In my personal experience I've noticed SH VA does about as much for catching contested passes as the first 15% catch ball AEQ.

Speaking of that, the catch ball% also applies to all the catch check rolls including the "my roll vs his roll", in the same way. Think of how useless it'd be if it only applied to the actual last catch check roll. It'd only determine whether or not you dropped the ball, and how often does that happen in WL? That is all you need to know. Think about real life- if you're better at catching you're better at reaching out and grabbing the ball before anyone else can get it. Does anyone think catching is only whether or not you drop the ball? They aren't thinking about this like a simulation. Heck, they aren't even thinking of it like its Madden.

Also you have to consider that catching is more of a multi-step process than deflecting the ball. You can see it more clearly in rookie ball, where every pass play comes down the WR bobbling the pass and whether or not he'll get a hold of it before the defender comes to deflect it away. It seems like you have to roll really high in the first tick to completely catch the ball- otherwise its 'in the process' and each subsequent tick it gets easier for the WR to complete the catch. IDK, I've always wondered, because its not listed on what Bort said, something to the effect of "if the WR half-catches the ball, then we roll again to get another chance to deflect or catch the ball", but it is obvious that something like that is going on. I'm guessing, the process is actually more steps than Bort listed but he didn't feel the need to go into the smallest details, he just wanted to explain the general dynamic, but IDK.

Anyhow, the TLDR version: if Sure Hands VA doesn't apply to every single roll in the catch interaction, than Catch Ball % wouldn't either, and it'd be as worthless as you mistakenly think SH VA is. Obviously, its not. Every roll in the catch interaction is a catch check roll and every VA or % modifier is applied to them.

Originally posted by Bash E. Bull

Anyhow, the TLDR version: if Sure Hands VA doesn't apply to every single roll in the catch interaction, than Catch Ball % wouldn't either, and it'd be as worthless as you mistakenly think SH VA is. Obviously, its not. Every roll in the catch interaction is a catch check roll and every VA or % modifier is applied to them.

Stop saying "if". We have multiple consistant bort quotes in this thread that sure hands doesn't help the wr vs cb battle roll, which is what matters for plateau dots.

Sure hands definitely and definitively does not help this battle roll, and is a shit VA for plateau dots. You pretending it's worth the same as 15% catch% based on nothing, literally is of negative value to this discussion.

We definitively know catch% (and deflect%) helps the battle roll but sure hands does not.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Oy... I'm gonna get pasted here because I'm generally the only one against this VA but I absolutely think DvG is the (one of the) Worst VA's out there. Let me break it down from the description;

"The bigger they are... Each level of DvG gives you a 1% bonus to the success rate of tackling a player that is heavier or stronger."

Ok... lets start with the fact it's a max 15% bonus. The worst of all possible bonuses. Not 3% where you would get a 45% bonus... or 5% where you would get a 75% bonus... but 1%. You can't get any lower. Add to that it's only gonna work for tiny dots. LB' generally need not apply (unless you build your tiny... in which case, IMHO, you've already screwed the pooch). So we're talkin CB's mostly (and some Safeties). Even then, if you're building a 5 foot nothing, 130 pound CB just to get max speed... well... uh... yeah. You're not only gonna fail most of your tackle rolls but also struggle with defending passes. Sure... you'll be hella fast... but unless you add on Strength (I'd say around 75 for a DB dot built to the minimums of height/weight) and jumping (lookin at around 90, IMHO)... you'll always be at a disadvantage against big TE's , Power WR's, and PHB's. Even WITH the tiny 15% bonus, you'll likely still fail the roll.
Now let's get to the rest (and the worst) of the description.

"If the tackle could not have been made without the bonus of DvG, the tackler uses DOUBLE the energy normally used to make the tackle, and also loses morale."

Essentially it's telling you your dot is going to get steadily worse and worse every time it wins a DvG helped tackle. So by the 4th quarter, then you NEED the dot at it's best, you're hurtin on both Morale and Energy... hell.. you're likely on the bench in favor of the backup because you're spent. Energy and Morale levels effect outcomes of plays. Every time you lose Energy and Morale you become less effective at your job... including pass coverage and TACKLING. So maybe you save a long run/play with your DvG. Then, when you need to stop the next one you fail the roll because of the damage from the last one.

I say, build your dots right and you don't/won't need DvG to save yer butt. Or... get Death Grip instead that gives you a 3 % chance (meaning 45% at 15 in the VA) of hangin on and gettin dragged along, slowin down the runner and letting the rest of the team come and gang-tackle him (much more effective anyways).

DvG adds +15% MT to dots with already an AE of +15% MT ad now you are +30% MT

when facing all these power running teams, tackling is at a premium

DvG + DG + ST + 70+ tackling + MT% AE is how coverage corners are tackling machines as well

Originally posted by RyanCane26

Most LBs have around or sub ~100 strength unless they have strength equipment, but most Power backs have north of 100 strength. The rest of your concerns are valid.

I'll submit Pocket Crusher .. pass rushing is pretty nonexistent anyway but I use evasive pass rush even on my strength lineman




agreed on Pocket Crusher

Originally posted by reddogrw
DvG adds +15% MT to dots with already an AE of +15% MT ad now you are +30% MT

when facing all these power running teams, tackling is at a premium

DvG + DG + ST + 70+ tackling + MT% AE is how coverage corners are tackling machines as well

Yep, this ^^. DvG gives you higher +make tackle % (when needed), than stacking THREE pieces of AEQ, because it doesn't suffer diminishing returns like gear.

And the energy/morale concern ... it's simply not relevant. Watch the PBP on someone who has it. It's -1 energy / -1 morale when it fires.

That amount of energy is COMPLETELY meaningless to a plateau dot, as they get about 6-8 energy from sitting on the bench for one snap. And you would've lost more morale by MISSING the tackle, than getting hit with the -1 from DvG.

That said, don't expect miracles from putting it on a 6 Str / 80 catch / 61 tackle Int CB ... +30% on a craptacular roll, is still going to be crap.

Originally posted by RyanCane26
Originally posted by Bort
It is fairly complicated as there are lots of situations, but the general gist is (if I'm the CB):
- I have to see the ball is coming in the first place (vision check)
- I have to get into position near enough the the ball to interact with it (speed/agility etc)
- I have to check if I am even going to get a chance to interact with the ball (Int check? No? Swat check instead?)
- If I'm near the WR, I have to fight with him to see who gets a chance at the ball (my roll vs his roll)
- If I win, I get to intercept or swat the ball. (depends on first roll type that succeeded, and if the WR gives me trouble catching it)
- If I lose, the receiver gets to try and catch the ball. It's all up to him now, though my being close by makes it harder on him.
- If the receiver fails to catch the ball, I get once more chance to try and intercept it if I am close enough.
- If the receiver catches it, now I've got to tackle him. Here's my chance to knock it loose with a good hit

Wow. I've read that dozens of times. It just now clicks.

When the ball comes in, the DB checks for INT and Def. The WR checks for Catch.

Then there's the roll to go first. That's a brain scramble. The "go first" or "fight" roll or whatever actually comes after the check to see if anything happens.

Originally posted by reddogrw
DvG adds +15% MT to dots with already an AE of +15% MT ad now you are +30% MT

when facing all these power running teams, tackling is at a premium

DvG + DG + ST + 70+ tackling + MT% AE is how coverage corners are tackling machines as well



THIS ^^^^ THIS ^^^^ THIS

Because Missed Tackles > Catch/deflect anything lol ....Lets Go D !!!