Warrior General Games

Also Underdog & Awe Inspiring VAs are super overlooked IMHO, a 30 VA investment for 75% chance at -20% vision penalty no matter the defender, and WRs typically do not have a full slate of 4-5 mandatory VAs for a build so there is room. Even if you use less points it's a pretty potent penalty to have firing every so often.

disclaimer: no recent WL experience

Originally posted by F00tballJunkie
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4767585

17 TDs and 17 INTs

Do you consider this great?

2 WL rings, so, yes.

Originally posted by Kenshinzen
5'11 is not 5'8 is in creative or what? can't see a counterpoint other than a juke-pass-score and that's good when it happens. Nexill wasn't prepared for this, must be that blocking TE you used as a decoy!

https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3099653&pbp_id=527020 5’8

I think what he's saying, Ryan (and likely Wise as well) is that those stats shouldn't make sense for a 2x WL champ. I agree with most that there's an imbalance between Offense and Defense when it comes to the passing game. I've gotten pretty good an avoiding the INT's but haven't quite worked out the completion %'s the way I believe they should be. Anything below 65% for a season, to me, is crap. Not wanting to dis the great defensive dot builders... or the awesome DC's out there... but if the Qb and reception stats we post for a season in WL were given to any team in the NFL they'd fire the OC and QB and receivers. I'm not asking for gaudy numbers but something a bit closer to reality. Krikey... college teams could whup our butts with sad stats like that.

I, just like you, disagree with Wise that it's the builds. I know they work because we've been building them for some time. They just don't work as well as most OC's would like them to. Some of that I attribute to play design. Only a handful of plays have appropriate route distancing and timing where you're not throwing into a hornet's nest of defenders because there's 2 or 3 receivers bunched into the exact same tiny area. Combine that with the speed of throws (and I really think that's a huge thing) that allow defenders to actually beat the pass to the receiver... then you got terrible passing. And that's with max bullet settings. IMHO. If the passing issues could be addressed then those same WR builds that this thread is complaining about today would be perfectly fine in that case. Given that won't likely happen I am not sure you can build a WR that will 'fix' the issue of excessive INT's and INC's. I've built monster Power WR's, hyper-tall/catching possession WR's, and plenty-fast Speed WR's and I've never seen one built that can claim to improve the QB's completion% / INT issues. It's simply not the fault of the receivers. Again, IMHO.

The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind. The answer is blowing in the wind.


Also

#1 99.99% of OCs don't know how to use anything else.

#2 the way the SIM is coded, the primary way WRs get targets is via separation. So you just have to land a Juke or CF, and be fast enough to get separation to draw the target.

#3 CBs have numbers on their side for every contested roll. They have the better ALGs, and the archetypes are perfect. Deleting Confidence from Speed WRs would literally be game changing. Dropping Carry to a minor and deleting Confidence would make Possession style WRs viable because of the CB/WR fight roll. Kick Vision to a minor on the Power WR, delete Confidence and you have a legit Power WR.

Originally posted by RyanCane26
2 WL rings, so, yes.

Perhaps a 3rd WL ring?

So not wanting to come across wrong as I'm just as interested in Wise's take here as likely anyone else but I would ask (Wise) then, if the builds you don't like today could be done far differently... in a way that's never been done before... that would be a HUGE improvement over what we have... then what WOULD your ideal end build WR be? Archetype, height, and weight as well... please.

Originally posted by RyanCane26
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3099653&pbp_id=527020 5’8

yep, I'm with you in that. If s fake fires you have fake-pass-score. If fake doesn't fire (and is not reliable enough) then what?

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
So not wanting to come across wrong as I'm just as interested in Wise's take here as likely anyone else but I would ask (Wise) then, if the builds you don't like today could be done far differently... in a way that's never been done before... that would be a HUGE improvement over what we have... then what WOULD your ideal end build WR be? Archetype, height, and weight as well... please.



he linked to it in his first post.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o_sHb3y8G5YdGhZVN5Rec65zguCtapG3aSAKYMDZLGc/edit#gid=0

Originally posted by Kegatron
What role does vision play in this? I feel like all the secondary dots pump vision, but it barely gets talked about for WR/TE. It's supposed to help with the fakes too iirc, but still doesnt get pumped up.



bump

VIS even ignored in Wise's rec builds except for the AGI WR

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago

I, just like you, disagree with Wise that it's the builds..

Fwiw, RC's actual stance is that the sim is fair and good and awesome since everyone plays with the same sim, which he is currently the best at. This isn't a particularly interesting or enlightening view imho.

Just to be perfectly clear on my stance, I don't feel the only issue with passing game is the WR builds, but I didn't make this thread to discuss things outside of our control. Rather to focus on things within our control.

However I do truly believe that the "meta" builds that exist are sub-optimal, and that a deviation or improvement of that meta (in almost any direction) would generally improve passing at the WL and top Pro level.

Keep in mind for a long time, powerbacks with spd/str split equipment were not an accepted thing. This is not because they didn't work earlier, it is just because people (like for WR's) were scared to not put all equipment into speed or to deviate from the accepted meta that has a nearly 2 year ramp up cycle. No one truly reacted to the INT CB meta in the last 50 seasons besides simply avoiding the pass game and more specifically the outside WR pass game.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind. The answer is blowing in the wind.


Also

#1 99.99% of OCs don't know how to use anything else.

#2 the way the SIM is coded, the primary way WRs get targets is via separation. So you just have to land a Juke or CF, and be fast enough to get separation to draw the target.

#3 CBs have numbers on their side for every contested roll. They have the better ALGs, and the archetypes are perfect. Deleting Confidence from Speed WRs would literally be game changing. Dropping Carry to a minor and deleting Confidence would make Possession style WRs viable because of the CB/WR fight roll. Kick Vision to a minor on the Power WR, delete Confidence and you have a legit Power WR.



1. Maybe, but even the OC's that know how, don't throw to WR1's or WR2's generally at the moment. If the best in the game can't do it, no one can or will.

2. Given all the WR's generally at top levels are 155 spd to 160 spd fake receivers, yes the only way they are ever getting open is by getting lucky on a fake then running away.

3. I would also like Bort to give me a mansion and name a pro league after me.

========

Just noting....
S92's leading receiving WR in WL was a 153 spd possession receiver https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4770992

s93's current leading receiving WR in WL is a 141 spd 107 agi WR who was nice enough to agree to my crazy plan to swap 16 equipment from spd to agi this year. https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4775631

=======

At the end of the day, I just don't understand why everyone is defending the builds we know don't work. At least "TRY" something which "COULD" work. Outside receivers in WL get 1 catch a game, aside from RC's genius WR2 guys on Florida. In the current meta 100% in GLB would undoubtedly be better off just making nothing but str/blk WR's at WR1 and WR2 rather than 5'8" 8 str guys that get 1 catch a game.

Originally posted by Kegatron
Originally posted by Kegatron

What role does vision play in this? I feel like all the secondary dots pump vision, but it barely gets talked about for WR/TE. It's supposed to help with the fakes too iirc, but still doesnt get pumped up.

bump

VIS even ignored in Wise's rec builds except for the AGI WR

So, what does vision do on WR's?

1. We know its the 3rd highest weighted attribute in the catch roll / anti pd roll / anti-INT roll, behind catching (#1) and jumping (#2).

2. It helps fakes (headfake and juke) fire, since you have to "see" the offensive player to attempt to fake them. It's pretty unclear whether this is a part of the route running juke decisions as bort coded them separately, but I imagine it also is.

3. Helps fake battle roll, since it's the biggest piece of the "base fake" roll (understanding base fakes only happen with the ball, never during routes, need a SA to fake on a route), and thus is a part of the fake rolls that juke and head fake both boost, as well as what fake% boosts.

At the end of the day you are doing a fake score (offensive player) vs avoid fake roll (defensive player). If the offensive player wins, a juke or headfake or silent base fake (defender runs dumb and misses) happens. It's worth noting that this isn't pass/fail, but rather the amount you win by determines how long the defender is faked.

4. It makes your elusive route running be better and more decisive, and choose where to go better to avoid defenders. Around 68 seems to be the sweet spot. Personally without a high agility (105+) WR, I'd avoid creative route running anyhow though. I really only like it on recRB and recFB which tend to have 60-68+ vision, because their change of direction routes do better stuff on creative than typical WR/TE routes.

Wise's general feel for vision on WR's

I know I left a lot blank, but 48 would be the target for those spots I didn't list it. When doing super-speed or ultra-speed stuff you simply don't have the SP's to pump vision higher. Both the SA itself, and stacked fake% will help your fake scores more in #3 above, I don't recommend creative #4, and I view vision as a distance 3rd in the anti-PD and anti-INT rolls for #1 (though who's to say how much lower it is than jumping).

So in generally I'm not too worried about vision on WR's past 48 or so, but if you wanted a fake specialist, 2x fake%, 11+ juke, 80 vision, with some spd/agi quipment split could be a fun test. Heck maybe 90 vision, because why not.

Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN

Just noting....
S92's leading receiving WR in WL was a 153 spd possession receiver https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4770992

s93's current leading receiving WR in WL is a 141 spd 107 agi WR who was nice enough to agree to my crazy plan to swap 16 equipment from spd to agi this year. https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4775631


Also 40+ more targets than the 2nd leading receiver

Originally posted by RyanCane26
Also 40+ more targets than the 2nd leading receiver

Who cares? Leading is leading is leading. If I guy has 1 target for a 90 yd td, he's not the leading WL receiver...

TSW's guy is averaging a healthy 7.2 yards per target.
4th Street's guy last year averaged 8.3 yards per target.

Not my fault other OC's love 3.7 ypc rushes instead.