Warrior General Games

Ah! In all the seasons I was doing recon (scouting) work I had never seen it myself but you're talking >one< player (me) and scouting only a small sample of games when compared to ALL the games that got played over that same timeframe... so I wasn't gonna just arbitrarily state it as fact. Good info to know. Thanks Novie.

When you shit out a kidney stone

Originally posted by Joe Buck
Please provide some clarification on the Dump Pass SA?
Originally posted by Bort
+Pass Quality for short passes, less likely to throw an errant pass.
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3010926&page=1#25899300

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
Originally posted by Joe Buck
Please provide some clarification on the Dump Pass SA?
Originally posted by Bort
+Pass Quality for short passes, less likely to throw an errant pass.
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3010926&page=1#25899300



FANTASTIC find. Looks like that's for the Dump Pass SA, though, rather than for the tactics setting. Still useful info though.

Here's the text for the Dump Pass SA: "The Dump Pass ability gives the QB a bonus to competing passes that are less than 5 yards."

On the QB's tactics page, the option is specifically called "HB/FB Dump Pass" and it comes with 3 options:
- Often: Dump off to HB/FB often when checking down
- Sometimes: Pass to the HB/FB when checking down as normal
- Never: Only pass to HB/FB on plays that specifically call on them to be primary receivers

So, Bort seems to be using 2 different definitions in 2 different places.

For the purposes of the Dump Pass SA, a dump pass is ANY pass to ANY receiver that is less than 5 yards, and that seems to be regardless of pressure on the QB or progression. A 3-yard pass to a WR would trigger this SA, for example.

For the purposes of the "HB/FB Dump Pass" tactic setting, a dump pass appears to be a pass to an HB or FB outside of the passing progression, triggered by pressure on the QB from the defense.

Looking deeper at the OP's question, Sunder is wondering why a QB who has the HB/FB Dump Pass tactic set to Never would still throw 8 passes to HBs. Possible explanations:
- The custom progression for that play included the HB.
- The natural progression for that play included the HB.
- The HB might have yelled "I'M OPEN" and got the QB's attention, triggering a pass attempt outside of the progression order. That's technically not an HB/FB dump pass... it's a QB passing a Vision check and throwing to an open man.
- HB screen plays.

Not all passes to HBs and FBs are "dump passes," though the OP seems to understand that already. But it bears repeating.

However, ALL passes are thrown to dots who are running routes. Period. Dots who are held back to block never get thrown to, period. It's just how the in-game mechanic works for holding a dot back to block.

Originally posted by Novus


Looking deeper at the OP's question, Sunder is wondering why a QB who has the HB/FB Dump Pass tactic set to Never would still throw 8 passes to HBs. Possible explanations:
- The custom progression for that play included the HB.
- The natural progression for that play included the HB.
- The HB might have yelled "I'M OPEN" and got the QB's attention, triggering a pass attempt outside of the progression order. That's technically not an HB/FB dump pass... it's a QB passing a Vision check and throwing to an open man.
- HB screen plays.

Not all passes to HBs and FBs are "dump passes," though the OP seems to understand that already. But it bears repeating.

However, ALL passes are thrown to dots who are running routes. Period. Dots who are held back to block never get thrown to, period. It's just how the in-game mechanic works for holding a dot back to block.

Thanks Novus.

There is no Custom progression as it is casual, but could certainly be a natural progression. IN none of the instances did the HB use the I'm open icon.

Looking at the passes to the HB we were looking at, I believe all were +5 yards so based on the deduced definition here I guess it would make sense that none of them were considered dump passes.

Originally posted by sunder B
Thanks Novus.

There is no Custom progression as it is casual, but could certainly be a natural progression. IN none of the instances did the HB use the I'm open icon.

Looking at the passes to the HB we were looking at, I believe all were +5 yards so based on the deduced definition here I guess it would make sense that none of them were considered dump passes.



The next question is....does GLB even have dump passes? I mean if the HB isnt going into a route (minus screens) then they just block....

Originally posted by .spider.
The next question is....does GLB even have dump passes? I mean if the HB isnt going into a route (minus screens) then they just block....

If by "dump pass" you mean where the QB drops out of his progression and throws a pass to an HB or FB running a route due to blitz pressure, then yes, GLB has dump passes. I've seen them. However, the HB or FB has to already be running a route -- if they're held back to block, the QB CANNOT throw to them. There is no mechanic in the game for a HB or FB to release off of a block and start running a short route for the QB to dump out to.

As an example, let's say a team calls an I-Formation pass play and sends everyone out to run routes, holding nobody back to block. They use a custom progression of WR1-WR1-WR2-WR2-TE, because the OC doesn't like the routes for the HB or FB on that play. But when the play starts, the defense gets both their LDE and their RDE into the backfield and immediately "hurries" the QB. The QB is still looking at WR1 when he "feels" the pressure, and since his HB/FB Dump Pass tactic is set to "Often," he bails out of his progression and throws to the HB. I've seen this happen before, so I know this mechanic is built into the game.

Now let's look at the same example, but this time the offense holds the HB and FB back to block. But let's say they're bad at blocking, so the same thing happens: the QB gets pressured by both DEs and bails out of his progression so he can just get rid of the ball. But since the HB and FB are both blocking, GLB will not let the QB throw to either of them. Instead, he'll throw to the first open man he can see, probably a target on a short crossing route. I've seen this happen before as well.

Originally posted by Novus
If by "dump pass" you mean where the QB drops out of his progression and throws a pass to an HB or FB running a route due to blitz pressure, then yes, GLB has dump passes.

I'll stop right there as I thought in this thread we have already determined if the HB/FB are "running a route" that does NOT consist of a dump pass....

Because according to your logic, and I'm not attacking here, if dump passes include HB/FB running routes, and the QB is set to "never dump pass" then the game in question the HB's should have had 0 targets, and that's not the case.

Originally posted by sunder B
Having a discussion with another agent on the QB setting of allowing for dump passes to the HB or FB. It got me to thinking if dump passes were ever specifically identified or defined by Bort anywhere?

We were overlooking a game in which the QB's tactics were set to "never" dump pass to HB/FB, yet there were 8 targets to the HB's in the game.

I looked at the replays and I am not sure I would consider any of them dump passes as the HB's ran regular routes on all of them. Now they were not the primary target in any of the plays, but on the play trees these are regular routes

Now that being said, I don't know if I can identify a situation in which a pass was to the HB/FB in which they did not run a route.

So which is it?




I don't think it's visible in casual, because there's no way to test. In regular leagues...

you could run plays like
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/images/plays/103.gif
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/images/plays/124.gif
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/images/plays/157.gif
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/images/plays/24.gif

Then an OC could set the progressions to TE, WR1, WR1, WR2, WR2 or whatever...

Then QB uses tactics of " HB/FB Dump Pass : Often "

If the QB throws to either the HB or FB we could assume that would be a tactics based "dump off"

Originally posted by .spider.
I'll stop right there as I thought in this thread we have already determined if the HB/FB are "running a route" that does NOT consist of a dump pass....

Because according to your logic, and I'm not attacking here, if dump passes include HB/FB running routes, and the QB is set to "never dump pass" then the game in question the HB's should have had 0 targets, and that's not the case.

Except dump off tactic is a response to pressure. We don't know about regular routes in the case in question. If,in the general setting, passes to HB and FBs were also set to 0%, in addition to the QB tactic of NEVER, then in theory they shouldn't get targets. But... we know that isn't the case either because the Ai overrides percentages all the time in casual.

That's part of the game in casual. You kind of have to live with whatever you get. And in theory, that's a good thing. if a defense never covers the HB and he's always wide open you'd hope "common sense" would kick in and he'd get a target or 2.

Originally posted by .spider.
I'll stop right there as I thought in this thread we have already determined if the HB/FB are "running a route" that does NOT consist of a dump pass....

Not attacking... ...but we have not determined that in this thread.

A QB can only throw a pass -- ANY type of pass, dump pass or normal pass -- to a dot who is running a route.

Remember, a dot can be running a route and NOT be in the Custom Progression for that play. In that case, the QB can only throw to that dot in one of two circumstances:

1.) If the QB has the "HB/FB Dump Pass" tactic set to either Sometimes or Often, and if the QB is hurried by a defender, the QB can check out of his progression entirely and throw to the HB or FB -- but only if the HB or FB is running a route. This is what's triggered by the "HB/FB Dump Pass" tactic setting.

2.) If the HB or FB is running a route, finds themselves wide open, and yells "I'M OPEN," and if the QB passes a Vision check to notice this, the QB can check out of his progression entirely and throw to the open HB or FB. This is NOT a dump pass -- the QB can also do this with a TE or a WR.

Originally posted by .spider.
Because according to your logic, and I'm not attacking here, if dump passes include HB/FB running routes, and the QB is set to "never dump pass" then the game in question the HB's should have had 0 targets, and that's not the case.

If I remember right, the game in question was in Casual, so Custom Progressions don't apply. However, every pass play comes with its own set of "natural" progressions, and the HB and FB are sometimes included in that set of "natural" progressions. So, for a Casual QB who has the "HB/FB Dump Pass" tactic setting set to Never, the QB can still throw passes to HBs and FBs -- IF they come up as the next target in a progression. So if the default progression is WR1-WR2-HB-TE-FB, and the QB looks at both WR1 and WR2 and sees they're both covered, he'll look at the HB next -- and pass to him if he's open. Since it came up in the natural progression order, it's not a dump pass.

Make sense? I don't think I explained this well enough yesterday.

yeah, the double dump is a bit confusing...

any pass 5 yards or less, is a dump pass for the purposes of the SA

a tactical dump pass is forced by pressure, and it's a forced throw outside of the normal progression to the FB/HB in an attempt to avoid a sack

in a casual game, you'd have to study a lot of film to see what the "normal" progression was an any given play. once you know how it's supposed to work, then spotting the dump passes would be easy.

So if I have a pass play with no targeted receivers, like setting all to WR5 in a 3 WR set, and the QB has dump set to often, he will basically only look at the HB and FB?