Warrior General Games

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4488804&page=3#40817670

Originally posted by Bort
You have to reach a certain threshold of quality to get a fumble roll try. Make tackle % does help improve that.

So, break tackle can help prevent a fumble roll from ever occurring by keeping the tackler out of that quality threshold. In addition...

Originally posted by Bort

You gotta make the tackle roll first, then the quality of that roll goes into the force fumble roll after it.

Break Tackle is Avoid Fumble. Even if that threshold is crossed, the BT will reduce the amount of bonus the tackler gets.

Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader

That makes sense. I'm still surprised that the 2 fullback-returner builds had 2 break tackle pieces and only one avoid fumble piece (rather than vice versa).


TJ makes a very good point above, the tackle roll comes first - so if you can break the tackle, the force fumble roll doesn't happen.

To further the point, both FB's had 10 in the Cover Up SA (Cover Up helps the player protect the ball. He will hug it close to his body, making it harder to cause a fumble).

Taking it one step further, they had 15 & 11, respectively, in the Return Man VA (This player returns kicks intelligently and avoids mistakes. When playing KR/PR, each level of return man gives a +3% bonus to vision, a +2% bonus to the success rate of Juke, Spin, and Head Fake, and a 2% bonus to avoiding fumbles).

Between the investments in the Cover Up SA and Return Man VA, it probably doesn't make sense to invest in a second Avoid Fumble piece.

FWIW, I was surprised that the Vision wasn't higher (2nd Cap) on either dot. Since there's an avoid tackle(r) component to Vision, it seemed like the second cap would be beneficial - especially when the Return Man VA gives it a significant boost.

Food for thought. You'll never have a fumble issue if they can't ever tackle you.

I was thinking the exact opposite. If you're going for fumbles, you should build a tackle machine. Do 25% make tackle instead of 25% force fumble.

Originally posted by thermon
I was thinking the exact opposite. If you're going for fumbles, you should build a tackle machine. Do 25% make tackle instead of 25% force fumble.


Why not both? (or somewhat close). Using 4 AEQ and CEQ as well you could get 3 pieces of one and 2 of the other.

Without his WL endorsement gear on...

Giovanny McCarthy (Lv. 79 HB)
Ht/Wt: 5'6", 180lbs

Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 70.26
Speed: 155.1 (+55)
Agility: 93.1 (+3)
Jumping: 35
Stamina: 62.26
Vision: 61.1
Confidence: 48.26
Carrying: 90.1

Special Abilities
Elusive Back Abilities
Quick Cut: 9
Head Fake: 4
First Step: 6
Juke: 10
Spin: 10

Power Back Abilities
Cover Up: 6
Lower the Shoulder: 0
Stiff Arm: 0
Power Through: 0
Dive for Yardage: 0

Additional Abilities
Return Specialist: 10

Veteran Abilities
Overtime Killer: 1
Quick Feet: 15
Return Man: 15
Slippery: 15
Special Teamer: 15

Current Bonuses/Penalties
Spin chance: +30%
Head Fake chance: +30%
Hurdle chance: +30%
Juke chance: +30%
Break tackle chance: +22.5%
Fake chance: +15%
Not fumble chance: +21%

Dave? Question. Since Confidence needed for OTK is only 40 why did you take his to 48 instead of taking something else higher (jumping [for hurdle] or even more in Cover Up or Head fake)? Just wondering. BTW, sweet returner.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Dave? Question. Since Confidence needed for OTK is only 40 why did you take his to 48 instead of taking something else higher (jumping [for hurdle] or even more in Cover Up or Head fake)? Just wondering. BTW, sweet returner.

Morale drop after a fumble is usually pretty brutal, and one fumble can lead to more. By going with 48 instead of 40 confidence, it reduces how much the morale drops.

Fair nuff.

Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors
Morale drop after a fumble is usually pretty brutal, and one fumble can lead to more. By going with 48 instead of 40 confidence, it reduces how much the morale drops.

It's pretty uncommon for a returner to fumble more than once in a game and I think the same is true for most good returners. Your guy has only done it once in his career. In my opinion the argument for 48 confidence is more as a guard against AOI/monster hits/etc. rather than purely fumble reduction.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Why not both? (or somewhat close). Using 4 AEQ and CEQ as well you could get 3 pieces of one and 2 of the other.

You definitely want both. Generally you want 2 pieces of each to be a real FF threat. Make tackle % indirectly increases your chances of forcing a fumble as TJ said and is just good to have in general especially when you are rolling with power tackling.

I wouldn't put a third piece on either though, just because if I have a 5th piece of EQ then I'd rather have 15% BB or 15% AF over 3% MT or FF.

Originally posted by Donk3yMan
You definitely want both. Generally you want 2 pieces of each to be a real FF threat. Make tackle % indirectly increases your chances of forcing a fumble as TJ said and is just good to have in general especially when you are rolling with power tackling.

I wouldn't put a third piece on either though, just because if I have a 5th piece of EQ then I'd rather have 15% BB or 15% AF over 3% MT or FF.

Great advice.

Originally posted by Donk3yMan
You definitely want both. Generally you want 2 pieces of each to be a real FF threat. Make tackle % indirectly increases your chances of forcing a fumble as TJ said and is just good to have in general especially when you are rolling with power tackling.

I wouldn't put a third piece on either though, just because if I have a 5th piece of EQ then I'd rather have 15% BB or 15% AF over 3% MT or FF.

Was what I was thinking when I posed the question. Why the question instead of an answer? I'm always open to new/other thoughts/ideas and didn't wanna seem like my answer is the only answer to the question. As for the bolded part of your reply, we might have a touch of disagreement. My logic is this. Most fumbles occur when a full speed impact from the tackler slams head on into the returner. If you're breaking a block to make a tackle, then you've lost all your momentum and so far less likely to cause a fumble (especially against a great returner build). So if you were building a STRICTLY 'force fumble' dot, I wouldn't go for BB but rather 3 AEQ FF and 1 AEQ plus CEQ for MT to maximize the ability to cause a fumble.
That said, I don't build FF style STOPS for that reason. Against the very best returners you're more at the mercy of the game AI as to the possibility of a fumble (enhanced by your FF dot's build, of course) and, against the best, it's less likely to happen than it is for the returner to bust off a TD return so I'm ALL for STOPPING the return first, rather than trying to cause a fumble as my primary objective. Which, to do that, you would build it EXACTLY as you describe (EQ-wise),

You have to have a high enough MT score to attempt the FF. More MT% than FF%, that way if you don't get the FF you still have a better shot at the tackle.

Forcing fumbles is risk reward. If you can't tackle enough, you've wasted AEq gear with three lots of %FF. If they are diversified, a lower chance of faking and broken blocks earlier can make a returner/back tackle attempt made earlier.