Warrior General Games

A WiseIvan siting! Everyone should take heed - he's generally on a higher level than the typical GLBer when talking about builds.

Theo I think you're wrong on this point and from time to time on other points that you make. BUT I think you're a really good guy and you obviously try to give your best advice to help new players so please don't take offense. Still, you're wrong on this point and I need to stress that so the original poster at least can consider that your opinion is not universal, and it's absolutely not what Bort said either so it's not just me saying that. Bout said that vision helps a QB to decide where the best location to throw the ball is, but the actual throw in every case was impacted by (and it seems to be in this order) throwing, confidence, morale, strength and other lesser factors. So confidence not only has the apparently second largest impact on the quality of the throw but also is the main thing that maintains morale, which has the apparently third largest impact on the quality of the throw. Go back and look at what WiseIvan posted.

reddogrw is basically citing standard build dogma - consensus of the masses. Personally I think most of these dogma "requirements" to use his word are not really requirements, and not necessarily the best way to build, but I think for someone who is not an advanced builder it helps them to produce capable dots.

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=3938152&page=2#35046021

Originally posted by Player
Does Pocket Presence like, add a flat +X% while being hurried, while confidence reduces the -X% while being hurried to a point where they actually GAIN throwing accuracy while under pressure?

Originally posted by Bort
PP increases the chance of negating the effect of hurries, while confidence is a modifier in how well it works. Neither can increase the QB's throwing, just decrease the effect of the hurry penalty value.

Yea he said that, but look at the question again. The question was asking if enough Pocket Presence and/or Confidence could cause a QB under pressure to actually have better throwing than when not under pressure. Bort's response is specific to the question asked. In this situation, neither will cause the QB to have better throwing than his base throwing.

But the QB's base throwing IS impacted by confidence. This is noted in the same thread. Just read on a few posts.

I guess that's one interpretation, but imo, if Confidence was a large part of the base throwing, and also helped negate pressure then it seems like it would be the most important attribute and everyone would be taking it to 100+ and the dQB archetype would be completely worthless.

Good discussion.

There are lots of misunderstandings of how things work, because "Bort said this" and elsewhere "Bort said that".
Interpretation is the key, right.

Some thoughts:
- Confidence is major attribute for pocket passer. Some other positions / archs You know that major skill can be neglected?
- Confidence has been stated to be part of the pass quality (by Bort).
- Catch did a study about confidence / pressure. (I guess this was the point when ppl started to neglect confidence almost entirely)
=> Link: http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=4963855&page=1#46034354

- After that study, there was some changes (changelog):

Aug 8, 2012
* Increased power of confidence in avoiding bad passes

Dec 1, 2012
* Increased confidence attribute strength toward avoiding bad throws from hurries by quite a bit
* Decreased radius for which a hurry is registered by a couple feet, and adjusted blocker angle calculations to be a little more stingy on awarding a hurry

- Best way to avoid QB pressure on passing plays is to get Your O-line fixed
- There are some VAs (Fearsome?) that will generate pressure no matter how far away from QB the player is
- Confidence will help fighting morale death spiral -effect
- OC should recognize differences between PP/DP builds, and adjust playcalling accordingly
- and
Originally posted by Sly
consensus of the masses.
=> if tt's generally accepted to go with ~60 confidence. It's quite hard to see any difference if no-one has 80+ confidence.


What I'm thinking is Confidence is bit underestimated. It's not VERY important, but it is somewhat important.

The biggest flaw in the logic of EVERYONE thus far is that a pocket passer should favor confidence more than a deep passer since they have less of a demand for strength.

If you consider that on a deep pass the QB is drastically more likely to be hurried than a "pocket" pass, you should realize that confidence would therefore be more needed on the deep passer QB.

My thoughts are that a deep passer actually has a higher demand on EVERY SINGLE throwing attribute...

I find that on a deep throw vision is more important, since plenty of people run "Deep" zones and the QB must note where the safety is going to help and throw otherwise, and to me it seems much fewer "Shallow/Medium" zones are ran and thus the QB will be less likely to throw into double coverage as its less likely to occur on a shorter pass.

The deep thrower will spend more time in the pocket and this heightens the need for pocket-based attributes (Speed/Agility)

The deep thrower obviously needs more strength, and we went over confidence...

The conclusion is... if you are going to have a deep thrower you should realize that he is AS much a specialty dot as a Rushing QB and should be used that way... if you are going to build a pocket passer, please favor confidence over strength, and possibly even vision... and obviously throwing over everything.

Originally posted by Stoned Beaver

If you consider that on a deep pass the QB is drastically more likely to be hurried than a "pocket" pass, you should realize that confidence would therefore be more needed on the deep passer QB.
...
The deep thrower will spend more time in the pocket and this heightens the need for pocket-based attributes (Speed/Agility)


Somewhat true, but depends on route runners speed.
I'm thinking about possession & pocket / speed & deep passer combinations

Deep passing plays should turn into A LOT more yds per catch, so comp% can be drastically lower. You can afford more hurries and bad / incomplete passes.

But I've been away for a looooong time...

I think the whole side discussion on archetypes is a bit misleading. I know many people whether they build one archetype or the other will target about the same end build. It is more of a question of whether they think that end build will be slightly better with one archetype or the other based on the exact end values of various abilities that they are targeting and how much they value the SA tree green or bonus abilities.

Having better builds on all your dots is always advisable but there is no way to avoid pressure entirely from a good defense. Optimizing your blocking builds and play calling logic can help reduce but not eliminate that pressure, and I include not only the O-line but TEs and backs in blocking builds. The only way to avoid pressure is to run the ball, and the next best option is a very short passing game, but either (or even a combination of both) are pretty easy for a good DC to prepare for if he knows they're coming.

This leads us into the OC discussion. An OC has to consider build limitations in his game planning, but he also has to avoid being too predictable and easy to game plan against, and even more importantly, depending on down and distance, he has to call plays that have a reasonable chance of succeeding in moving the chains and giving the offense a chance to score. There are DCs out there who will play the odds and if the offense needs x number of yards will set their defenses appropriately with the expectation that OCs will want to try to get the shortest amount of yardage possible to get a first down. And the OC may pick a play because he really likes a certain route in it but in case that route is covered he does have to have the QB also look at other routes and oftentimes those other routes may not be ideal for a QB who has build limitations. So there are many reasons why an offense will need to throw long a fair amount of the time no matter how bad his QB's build, both to keep defenses honest and because that may be the routes the defenses give the offense by having the least amount of coverage on those routes. This gets back to the statement I made earlier that having better builds on your dots is always advisable, especially on critical dots like the QB.

Finally there are a huge number of QB builds I see with 80+ confidence. There are quite a few with 90+ or even 100+ confidence. I would not say 60 confidence is the "generally accepted" number among the better dot builders. Go review open builds from former/ recently retired WL quarterbacks and see how many have 60 and how many have much more.

Well said.
Since I haven't watched any Pro/WL games lately (= since S32) - how many offenses are down to "pass first"?
And to add spice; any dual-threat QBs around - let's say it's 3rd & 5 to go?

There was a real craze of pass-oriented offenses at one time, probably including the time you left the game (although my memory/timeline may be a little off). There are offenses which are still pass first or balanced, but probably the biggest things you missed since S32 are:
1) the rise of the INT-crazed defenses who dedicate a huge amount of their resources to building INT defenders with the idea of crushing pass-first offenses.
2) the (almost reactionary) rise of the run-first offenses and run-every-play offenses who enjoyed a lot of success smashing through defenses that were wildly disproportionately geared to stopping the pass. This is a product of some DCs not having the personnel on their roster to stop the run game even though they know it's coming from some opponents. For instance, both of the teams that met in the most recent WL champion ran about 80% of the time last season (this could also be impacted by them being ahead in most games).
3) however, as more and more of the better defenses begin to move away from the kind of obsessively pass-oriented defensive builds that are still the ones the masses (and admittedly still some of the better teams) are building from old build guides, I think you may eventually see a kind of equilibrium emerge where defenses that are equally effective against the run or pass rise to the top and offenses as a result can have success with either.

Nice summary. Sounds about right, what I've learned going thru some old Q&A and other forums.

Do you (other) people think GLB might be moving more towards "specialized personnel" defense?
I understand roster size limits this - but hey, so does NFL?
So, in cost of offensive players You can have. Cutting down n:o of offensive players, using very 1-sided offense (with fewer dots) & counting more on defense then?
Isn't this always the issue - You go either way or the other?

Thinking about number of linebackers + defensive backs here....
Still I don't have clue, if defenses win the championships in GLB(?)

Just curious, trying to get some opinions & learn something here....

Originally posted by Sly
A WiseIvan siting! Everyone should take heed - he's generally on a higher level than the typical GLBer when talking about builds.

Theo I think you're wrong on this point and from time to time on other points that you make. BUT I think you're a really good guy and you obviously try to give your best advice to help new players so please don't take offense. Still, you're wrong on this point and I need to stress that so the original poster at least can consider that your opinion is not universal, and it's absolutely not what Bort said either so it's not just me saying that. Bout said that vision helps a QB to decide where the best location to throw the ball is, but the actual throw in every case was impacted by (and it seems to be in this order) throwing, confidence, morale, strength and other lesser factors. So confidence not only has the apparently second largest impact on the quality of the throw but also is the main thing that maintains morale, which has the apparently third largest impact on the quality of the throw. Go back and look at what WiseIvan posted.

reddogrw is basically citing standard build dogma - consensus of the masses. Personally I think most of these dogma "requirements" to use his word are not really requirements, and not necessarily the best way to build, but I think for someone who is not an advanced builder it helps them to produce capable dots.

sorry - but 3 PQ% pieces in one form or another is needed for any QB that passes regardless of archetype

building 2 AE dots like this

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4633720

with a lower EL than a 3 AE dot like this

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4625331

is just bad building, so if anyone needs PQ% and confidence to overcome crap builds it would be you

2AEQ for life

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
2AEQ for life

says the guy with 3 AE on his dots

well trolled

Originally posted by Sly
Bout said that vision helps a QB to decide where the best location to throw the ball is, but the actual throw in every case was impacted by (and it seems to be in this order) throwing, confidence, morale, strength and other lesser factors.

I don't dig deeper into this. This is plain oh-so-wrong to me. Deliberately false information?

Originally posted by Stoned Beaver
My thoughts are that a deep passer actually has a higher demand on EVERY SINGLE throwing attribute...
So going without any / very few SAs? Otherwise pretty impossible, as we all know. But I guess that was the point.