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RiverRat2
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Originally posted by Stoned Beaver
It depends on the players on the opposing kickoff team, basically you wan't to create a hold-block mismatch without having the defender be so much faster (I'm pretty sure at higher levels agility is more important than just speed, but the concept remains) that they just run by the blocker.

Knowing this, the ideal 'STOP' set up would involve building around this concept, you would want to have dots built to create these match-ups (I would not expect the builds to be the same on each dot) and then utilize them via scouting.

If someone comes in here talking about some perfect build they are just wrong, plain and simple. Take their dot, and its just as easy to then create a dot that would blow right past/steam roll that dot and make the tackle anyway.

Its important on Kickoff to create at LEAST 3 of these match-ups, and have them be close together, and at least one of them be on the Back Wall.

Another thing worth noting is that you should monitor the speed/agility of players in the BW1/BW2/BW3 spots, you want them to achieve reaching their blocking assignment JUST AS the KR gets to that dot (basically providing you with a free block REGARDLESS of break block/hold block roll - this is where I sneak in players who have no blocking stats, or whatever blocking stats, and just have the correct speed/agility needed).

Bottom line, as is the case with everything in this game, you can't really do it 'perfectly' its all about scouting and enabling yourself with a strategy to take advantage of that scouting with your builds.


 
sewinston
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Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
since Longhorn Fan built so many great returner


 
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First of all, Stoned Beaver has one of the best responses I have seen to a question in quite a while. Well done!

As for the best position for a KR, Elusive HB imo....

1. The 4 major skills you get as an Elusive HB will render a better build than the 5 major skill Returner archetype for HB, WR, or CB.
2. The SAs that get a bonus are Head Fake and Juke...CBs have neither unless you use/add Bonus SAs, and WRs have Juke at the end of the tree, so it will cost more to get it to 10+.
3. Return Man VA - gives a bonus to Head Fake, Juke, and Spin. Stack it with Quick Feet VA, and you get a +75% bonus to those three SAs.

Those are the big reasons why Elusive HB is the best position to use for a returner. In today's sim at the WL level, you are going to be very concerned with preventing fumbles, because the coordinators and builds are very good. There are a handful of teams using power backs as their returner specifically to avoid fumbles. I feel that these teams are limiting their potential. An elite returner nearly must be a 4 AEQ dot. 2x % BT, 2x % Fake, 1x% Avoid Fumble, and one of those will be the CE bonuses.
 
Monty Burns
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Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors
First of all, Stoned Beaver has one of the best responses I have seen to a question in quite a while. Well done!

As for the best position for a KR, Elusive HB imo....

1. The 4 major skills you get as an Elusive HB will render a better build than the 5 major skill Returner archetype for HB, WR, or CB.
2. The SAs that get a bonus are Head Fake and Juke...CBs have neither unless you use/add Bonus SAs, and WRs have Juke at the end of the tree, so it will cost more to get it to 10+.
3. Return Man VA - gives a bonus to Head Fake, Juke, and Spin. Stack it with Quick Feet VA, and you get a +75% bonus to those three SAs.

Those are the big reasons why Elusive HB is the best position to use for a returner. In today's sim at the WL level, you are going to be very concerned with preventing fumbles, because the coordinators and builds are very good. There are a handful of teams using power backs as their returner specifically to avoid fumbles. I feel that these teams are limiting their potential. An elite returner nearly must be a 4 AEQ dot. 2x % BT, 2x % Fake, 1x% Avoid Fumble, and one of those will be the CE bonuses.


EXCELLENT SUMMARY.....although some, myself included, will go 2x Avoid Fumble % at the expense of either the second Fake or BT %....and also the Cover Up SA is the first SA in the other skill tree and is worth a few points if you have some left over at build end IMO....
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader
I appreciate the feedback--I just felt somebody needed to ask the question since Longhorn Fan built so many great returners from the CB build.


I hesitate to pour bad water on anyone's dots but while LHF did build great HOF CB returners, two things I don't know about his dots.
#1, if his CB's were early builds and he eventually switched over to the Elusive HB route once the SA's and such proved themselves out and,
#2, how much of the 'success' of his CB returners were due to the build and how much were due to the fact he also built the STOPS (or had them built) to specific specs as well as the fact that he also did the ST setups for his returners.
As a former ST guy myself, my returners had their best seasons when I had the same control of everything ST-wise. It really does make a difference. I honestly do not know if the same is true of LHF or not which is why I pose the questions because they matter to the 'success' of a returners' career. That and the fact we tend to gauge the quality of a build by the STATS it accumulates rather than the build itself. Just being honest.
Edited by Theo Wizzago on Apr 5, 2016 21:20:40
 
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Originally posted by Monty Burns
EXCELLENT SUMMARY.....although some, myself included, will go 2x Avoid Fumble % at the expense of either the second Fake or BT %....and also the Cover Up SA is the first SA in the other skill tree and is worth a few points if you have some left over at build end IMO....


http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4410903

I don't know if I agree with the extra avoid fumble piece, because that Returner only had 4 fumbles in 3 seasons of WL from 42-44. He was the runner up in the STMVP race in all three of those seasons...I remember it somewhat bitterly. I agree with using a few points in cover up.
 
Monty Burns
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Originally posted by Dave Mr Majors
http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player.pl?player_id=4410903

I don't know if I agree with the extra avoid fumble piece, because that Returner only had 4 fumbles in 3 seasons of WL from 42-44. He was the runner up in the STMVP race in all three of those seasons...I remember it somewhat bitterly. I agree with using a few points in cover up.


I guess it depends on risk aversion....I'm risk averse as I feel its easier for a KR/PR to lose a game (lost fumble) as it is to win a game (TD return) at the highest levels, so I play it safe.
 
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Originally posted by Monty Burns
I guess it depends on risk aversion....I'm risk averse as I feel its easier for a KR/PR to lose a game (lost fumble) as it is to win a game (TD return) at the highest levels, so I play it safe.


Fair enough.
 
onemiln09
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Originally posted by Larry Roadgrader

That was a good read.


 
Dub ADD
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This is the most civil discussion I have ever read on these boards
 
Guppy, Inc
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one thing that wasnt mentioned is the st mvp. it does seem like CBs have an easier time winning mvp because like positions are compared to each other and HBs in those same leagues. FB and WR seem to be the hardest to get the mvp.
 
sgtjayb
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nm
Edited by sgtjayb on Apr 30, 2016 12:58:18
 
TJ Spikes
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Pretty much agree with everything in this thread. Well done.



The only thing I have to add in the cost factor. The elusive HB is far and away the best archy--However it's pretty expensive for a dot that isn't all that exciting. You can build WRs with Free player slots, and they have all the SAs, but outside of that free player, there's no reason to spend the flex when an elusive HB is better at the same cost. A FB is usually the best all-around choice, because of the cost/performance ratio. CBs can cost the same, but there's more stuff to invest in for SAs, which generally weakens the build.

One more edit...

http://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/player_awards.pl?player_id=4568088
Edited by TJ Spikes on Apr 30, 2016 21:43:38
Edited by TJ Spikes on Apr 30, 2016 21:40:38
Edited by TJ Spikes on Apr 30, 2016 21:31:15
 
Koowahn
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Does anyone have a good build plan for FB or WR?
Don't think imma get a free HB lol
 
Theo Wizzago
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Originally posted by Slocus
Does anyone have a good build plan for FB or WR?
Don't think imma get a free HB lol


What arch?
 
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