Warrior General Games

Thanks for the info. Any thoughts on Get Low?

Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
This is bad advice. Pancakes happen very often on STs because the return team can put their bigger, stronger blockers on the smaller, weaker coverage dots. It might be debatable whether pancake is worth it on an OL who is only blocking DL, but it is certainly worth it for a STOP who will be blocking safeties, LBs, and CBs along with the occasional DT and DE.

I'm tired today, so let me make sure I understand your argument before I respond to it.

What you're saying is that since STOP-dots tend to have less Strength and Blocking than standard O-line dots, it makes sense for a STOP-dot to put points into the Pancake SA. Am I correct?

I'm still skeptical though... the Pancake SA really doesn't seem to add any pancakes to my standard O-line dots, so why would it magically work for STOP-dots?

Originally posted by Novus
I'm tired today, so let me make sure I understand your argument before I respond to it.

What you're saying is that since STOP-dots tend to have less Strength and Blocking than standard O-line dots, it makes sense for a STOP-dot to put points into the Pancake SA. Am I correct?

I'm still skeptical though... the Pancake SA really doesn't seem to add any pancakes to my standard O-line dots, so why would it magically work for STOP-dots?

no. he is saying since STOPs arent the front line guys, they will most likely block faster guys like LBs,safeties etc. easier to pancake.


STOP vs DT/run stuff DE: harder for the STOP to pancake
buutt since they usually get matched up with LBs/Safeties
STOP vs LBs/SSs/FSs etc: easier for the STOP to win the pancake roll.

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
no. he is saying since STOPs arent the front line guys, they will most likely block faster guys like LBs,safeties etc. easier to pancake.

STOP vs DT/run stuff DE: harder for the STOP to pancake
buutt since they usually get matched up with LBs/Safeties
STOP vs LBs/SSs/FSs etc: easier for the STOP to win the pancake roll.

I don't think you get what I'm asking about.

I'm not asking about pancakes in general.

I'm specifically asking about the Pancake SA -- just the SA.

And my experience with the Pancake SA is that it really doesn't help standard O-line dots get more pancakes, so I'm skeptical as to whether the Pancake SA will help STOP-dots get more pancakes either.

Originally posted by Novus
I don't think you get what I'm asking about.

I'm not asking about pancakes in general.

I'm specifically asking about the Pancake SA -- just the SA.

And my experience with the Pancake SA is that it really doesn't help standard O-line dots get more pancakes, so I'm skeptical as to whether the Pancake SA will help STOP-dots get more pancakes either.

the way you asked it makes no sense.

but to answer again, im sure it does help STOPs get more pancakes. im sure it also helps olinemen get pancakes.

you realize when you put SPs into pancake, DLine are probably countering that SA, right? you wont see a significant difference since the defense is just countering everything the offense does and then it all comes down to some randomness.

as for STOPs, since they wont be going up against guys with SAs/VAs that help them hold their ground/stay on their feet, it will help them pancake those LBs and whatnot.

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
the way you asked it makes no sense.

but to answer again, im sure it does help STOPs get more pancakes. im sure it also helps olinemen get pancakes.

you realize when you put SPs into pancake, DLine are probably countering that SA, right? you wont see a significant difference since the defense is just countering everything the offense does and then it all comes down to some randomness.

Again, I'm skeptical. My team has O-line dots with the Pancake SA and O-line dots without the Pancake SA. The dots without the Pancake SA actually seem to get more pancakes.

When I was the Assistant OC for Asau in World League, same thing... we had O-line dots with the Pancake SA and others without it. Again, the dots without the Pancake SA often seemed to get more pancakes.

And I've heard quite a few other high-level builders express the same opinion, so I'm hardly alone in that thinking.

Given those results, it doesn't matter what the defensive dots are doing with their builds to counter the Pancake SA.

Which brings us to...

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
as for STOPs, since they wont be going up against guys with SAs/VAs that help them hold their ground/stay on their feet, it will help them pancake those LBs and whatnot.

Yes, STOP-dots will have an easier time pancaking weaker dots than pancaking stronger dots. Duh. The question is, will the Pancake SA help those STOP-dots get more pancakes than they would've gotten without the Pancake SA?

Also, keep in mind the Pancake SA is more expensive than the other SAs being discussed in this thread. So, if a more-expensive SA has limited impact, I'm going to save my SPs for cheaper SAs that have more of an impact.

Pancakes on OL depend on the position and plays you run. They get most of their pacakes from blocking LBs and DBs so OTs and TEs tend to get more pancakes because they block those positions more, especially on pulling and screens plays. LGs tend to get more pancakes than RGs because they tend to block downfield more on LBs. C tend to have the least amount of pancakes because they often face the NT although if you put some decent speed on them, they will block downfield a bit too.

Originally posted by Novus
Yes, STOP-dots will have an easier time pancaking weaker dots than pancaking stronger dots. Duh. The question is, will the Pancake SA help those STOP-dots get more pancakes than they would've gotten without the Pancake SA?

Also, keep in mind the Pancake SA is more expensive than the other SAs being discussed in this thread. So, if a more-expensive SA has limited impact, I'm going to save my SPs for cheaper SAs that have more of an impact.

i agree with not going with pancake, i was just explaining what LHF was saying, i think.


i wouldnt waste SPs on it tbh. i would rather pump up run block and cut block and get my attributes higher tbh.

Originally posted by ProfessionalKop
i agree with not going with pancake, i was just explaining what LHF was saying, i think.

i wouldnt waste SPs on it tbh. i would rather pump up run block and cut block and get my attributes higher tbh.

Cool. We'll agree on that then.

Originally posted by Guppy, Inc
pancakes on st tend to piss me off. far too often the player that gets caked will get up and be the 1 to make the tackle. i wish blockers had the option as to what to do when they pancake a player;
a) stay and jump up and down on him
b) run off to find someone else to block

...........................................


i'm going to go with you and blame my faulty memory.

LHF is correct and, against teams that don't counter Pancakes with balance and high agility, it's awesome. But if you counter Pancake with Balance (and decent agility), what happens is... when a dot gets caked, the dot that knocked him down immediately moves away to go after a new target... while the dot he caked pops right back up behind him. I know cuz I use it myself. Now, if you get caked BEHIND the returner, you're toast. But if you get caked in FRONT of him, then you "pop up" just in time to nail him with the ol' diving tackle as he darts past... pissing off guppies and guys that spend lots of points on Pancake.

I wasn't going to say anything because I really don't care about this game anymore, but I'm drunk, so fuck it. Y'all mother fuckers need to stop questioning what I say and just do it. I'm the most successful ST coordinator and returner builder this game has ever seen, and you're questioning my advice when I'm nice enough to give it. When I say pancake is good for STOPs, don't question me, just do it. You'll be better off.

You're drunk, LHF. Go home.

Originally posted by Novus
You're drunk, LHF. Go home.

You got nothing. You're one of those guys who talks a lot in the forums and tries to come off as smart, but you have no success in the game. Win something and then come back to me.

Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
You got nothing. You're one of those guys who talks a lot in the forums and tries to come off as smart, but you have no success in the game. Win something and then come back to me.

Okay, jd.

Originally posted by Theo Wizzago

Hands, yes It's ok. But there are better ones
Pummel, yes it's good.
Absorb Pain, yes If you don't build enough stamina into your STOP, this is decent... otherwise it's a waste.
Run Block, yes very good one.
Get Low, yes not all that good for ST's.
Cut Block, yes very good one.
Pancake, yes good one.
Balance, yes very good one.
and Lead Block? yes I like it and aaasahi is correct... it works for any "lead blocker" on all running plays.

Also consider Quick cut to help you with keeping speed up when having to turn to close on blockers/tacklers... and 5% hold block is one of the best bonuses on your AEQ. Hope that helps.


I think it has been established that Absorb Pain wont fire at all on ST since its a pass blocking SA--so be very careful with this one unless something has changed

and i'm not convinced Balance does a lot on ST either, at least not enough to be is worth the investment for AEQ. i tried it on a few multi-purpose STOPs (fast with equal blocking/tackling/strength) and they didnt seem to stay up more and/or get up faster than guys without Balance. Would like to hear other folks' opinions on this one.