Warrior General Games

Originally posted by bug03
right, because he wouldn't be better with more speed to go with that catch fake?
I bet my te has a better catches:jumping ratio

Indeed...sort of surprising that my guy has more YAC and better yards per catch....I would think you'd have more ability to break open deep than my guy.

Probably just the playcalls.

Originally posted by tautology
Originally posted by InRomoWeTrust

Honestly, I wouldn't even consider signing a receiving TE with less than 150 speed.

So I guess that leaves out the top rTE in WL for the past 3 seasons, and the currently ranked #13 TE of all time?

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=2162403

What's Chowhound, 149 speed?

The dot still moves with excellent pace (like ~38 on the speed script), which is my underlying point.

Originally posted by InRomoWeTrust
In this sim, a tackle breaking WR really has to be a receiver first. The days of 80 and 90 strength WRs are pretty much gone, imo.

If you can build a WR with 150+ speed/90+ agility/85+ catching and then some strength and carrying (like 60 strength/73 carrying), go for it. YAC Attack VA, +% break tackle, and Spin will be all you really need from that front.

73 carrying? My possession WR's have more carrying than that.

Originally posted by bhall43
Originally posted by InRomoWeTrust

In this sim, a tackle breaking WR really has to be a receiver first. The days of 80 and 90 strength WRs are pretty much gone, imo.

If you can build a WR with 150+ speed/90+ agility/85+ catching and then some strength and carrying (like 60 strength/73 carrying), go for it. YAC Attack VA, +% break tackle, and Spin will be all you really need from that front.

73 carrying? My possession WR's have more carrying than that.

My attitude in that comment was that strength/carrying is secondary to actually getting open and making the catch. Those numbers are completely up to "what's left", after you've accomplished what you want to from a speed/agility/catching standpoint.

Carrying should be one of your highest natural attributes in any power WR build. 90 minimum imo.

Originally posted by InRomoWeTrust
My attitude in that comment was that strength/carrying is secondary to actually getting open and making the catch. Those numbers are completely up to "what's left", after you've accomplished what you want to from a speed/agility/catching standpoint.
That makes no sense, really. If you're not going to build enough strength & carrying to break tackles then why bother with strength at all? In any case, we've already covered the fact that you don't need to "get open" to be a successful wideout anymore. The bottom line is that power WRs aren't worth the effort until (if) Bort ever decides to make them effective. Slow WRs with really high catching and old-fashioned speedy WRs are both viable in the current sim.

Originally posted by jdbolick

The bottom line is that power WRs aren't worth the effort until (if) Bort ever decides to make them effective.

They certainly have their place in my offense.

Hmm, ok. So basically if you're making a power WR, pump up catch. That mean all the aeq bonuses should go towards it?

I actually built a pretty good Power WR. I knew he'd be used for blocking on run plays... probably some ST's... and occasionally a pass or two. Since I already knew HOW I saw the end build, I knew where to start. #1, I made him as tall and as big as possible... more like a glorified TE than a WR. I concentrated on speed to start because I knew he'd need some. He ended up with around 140 speed (139, I think...). Some agility (around 90), some catching, (75-80), some strength (75), some blocking (50-60), and some carrying (60-70). Towards the end I added Jumping and that really changed him a lot. He went from being a glorified blocker and an occasional receiver, to a WR that caught about everything thrown at him... even in double and triple coverage. I'm guessing his height, strength, and jumping (along with his other skills) just let him out-jump and out muscle others for the ball. Admittedly... he was NOT built to outrun everybody so his YAC wasn't awesome... but it worked (the build) and it worked well... at the end (level 79). In between he was simply a good blocker and an occasional receiver.

Alright that gives me a good idea of what to do then. Thanks.

I was OCing a pretty good Power WR a few seasons back.

85+Carrying
80+ strength
78 Agility
80 Catching
143 speed

All I had to do was hit him on a few crossing routes and he would maintain momentum through the catch and every now and then he would break the initial tackle, an if you made sure to pull coverage out of the middle of the field he usually had some room to run. No need for insane speed, he just has to be able to run a route. I thin it's kind of ludicrous to think that you can build a power receiver that's identical to a speedster WR and have it be viable as a power WR. 65 Strength and 70 carrying will not break tackles very often if at all, and those are my end numbers for a speedster WR that I simply want to be able to resist knocked loose. The only Receivers that need more than 150 speed are speedsters themselves.

Power WR's can get away with 138-145 speed and Possession WR's can get away with 110-130 speed. I've seen both builds game-planned for effectively and succesful in National Pro at their prescribed roles.

What's the point of a Power WR tho?

If it's just to break tackles, then Spin works just fine without a lot of strength. Get a BT% AEQ, and get the supporting VAs.

If it's more of a dual-threat blocker/receiver concept, then the builder has to decide on how much of the receiver capabilities he's willing to give up to add blocking ability. In theory, someone could just build a pulling lineman concept out of a WR, and then tack on some catching.

Obviously more catching stuff will make a better receiver, and more blocking stuff will make a better blocker.

The heart of the problem is that adding strength, and it's associated perks, doesn't inherently make for a better receiver... so you start down the slippery slope of jack-of-all-trades.

Originally posted by TJ Spikes
What's the point of a Power WR tho?

If it's just to break tackles, then Spin works just fine without a lot of strength. Get a BT% AEQ, and get the supporting VAs.
No, it really doesn't.

Originally posted by jdbolick
The top 50 in WL receiving yards combined for 3060 receptions and broke only 110 tackles for a percentage of 3.6%. But those numbers look much worse if you remove backs from the equation. WRs and TEs in that top 50 combined for 2523 receptions and broken only 10!!! tackles for a percentage of 0.396%. I'm aware that few of those guys are actually built to break tackles, but even someone who isn't should break one more than a third of a percent of the time. And because that base chance is so extremely low, guys with Spin and YAC Attack and Slippery and break tackle AEQ still usually break those tackles only around ten percent of the time. Power WRs/TEs are a completely useless build right now, which is unfortunate.

The bottom line is that a power WR is built a lot like a combo or scat FB. His role is to provide good blocking to open up running lanes, and to be a reliable WR who can be very tough to be tackled by most CBs or SSs. To get the right mix of attributes for that package you are going to have to make tradeoffs.

Speed - If you go 150 you don't have a power WR. You can, however, get him up to around 140.
Catching - Gotta say the 80 cap is a must, paired with SAs that fit his role. I mix from the trees.
Blocking - 60 cap is good. No sense in hitting TE level. Not looking for pancakes. Power Thru SA, Downfield Blocker.
Strength - 90's
Agility - 90's. He needs Quick, hands
Carrying - 60 cap, 67 better. I doubt you can get to 73.

This kind of receiver is good to have at WR2. You are a factor in opening up outside runs and enough of a threat catching the ball.

Last point. Everybody has 150 speed WRs. Everybody also has 150 speed CBs. It's the other attributes that get ignored. Jumping, Strength are crucial to go with catching. You don't need 90 vision, but you'd better be above the 73 cap. Otherwise you have a fast guy who can't do anything.

Originally posted by jdbolick
Originally posted by TJ Spikes

What's the point of a Power WR tho?

If it's just to break tackles, then Spin works just fine without a lot of strength. Get a BT% AEQ, and get the supporting VAs.
No, it really doesn't.

Originally posted by jdbolick

The top 50 in WL receiving yards combined for 3060 receptions and broke only 110 tackles for a percentage of 3.6%. But those numbers look much worse if you remove backs from the equation. WRs and TEs in that top 50 combined for 2523 receptions and broken only 10!!! tackles for a percentage of 0.396%. I'm aware that few of those guys are actually built to break tackles, but even someone who isn't should break one more than a third of a percent of the time. And because that base chance is so extremely low, guys with Spin and YAC Attack and Slippery and break tackle AEQ still usually break those tackles only around ten percent of the time. Power WRs/TEs are a completely useless build right now, which is unfortunate.

that's a whole other argument. that has nothing to do with the mechanics of how spin works.

I'm sure if someone built a WR like a power FB with triple digit strength and also high carry, stacked BT% gear, and then Spin on top of all of that, the broken tackle percentage you're talking about would be better.