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Forum > Suggestions > New Defensive Late Game VA's to counter offensive comeback VA's
Skoll Wolfrun
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Originally posted by Dr. E
I think the counter is you are less effective the rest of the game. More than balances things IMHO.
other than Streaky, is there really any Offence VAs that make players less effective the rest of the game?
+1 to OP: there should never be such a lopsided amount of VAs built on one side or another in 1 facet of the game.
I think the counter is you are less effective the rest of the game. More than balances things IMHO.
other than Streaky, is there really any Offence VAs that make players less effective the rest of the game?
+1 to OP: there should never be such a lopsided amount of VAs built on one side or another in 1 facet of the game.
Dr. E
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Originally posted by Skoll Wolfrun
other than Streaky, is there really any Offence VAs that make players less effective the rest of the game?
+1 to OP: there should never be such a lopsided amount of VAs built on one side or another in 1 facet of the game.
You miss the point. If you spend 15 VA points on one of these 4th quarter come from behind VAs. then you don't have it to spend on Stone Wall, or Possession Receiver or whatever. That is the balance.
other than Streaky, is there really any Offence VAs that make players less effective the rest of the game?
+1 to OP: there should never be such a lopsided amount of VAs built on one side or another in 1 facet of the game.
You miss the point. If you spend 15 VA points on one of these 4th quarter come from behind VAs. then you don't have it to spend on Stone Wall, or Possession Receiver or whatever. That is the balance.
Ken1
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Originally posted by Dr. E
You miss the point. If you spend 15 VA points on one of these 4th quarter come from behind VAs. then you don't have it to spend on Stone Wall, or Possession Receiver or whatever. That is the balance.
^This. Plus...
Originally posted by Skoll Wolfrun
there should never be such a lopsided amount of VAs built on one side or another in 1 facet of the game.
There is only one come from behind VA right now: That is Comeback Kid. Clock Manager works equally regardless of the score (and is now so weak that no one should care what it does, anyway). I guess Big Heart still has scoring triggers, but the way they nerfed it they might as well have removed it.
Is one a lopsided number?
Oh, and the leading team almost always has higher morale. It doesn't need any VAs to pile more advantages on top of that.
You miss the point. If you spend 15 VA points on one of these 4th quarter come from behind VAs. then you don't have it to spend on Stone Wall, or Possession Receiver or whatever. That is the balance.
^This. Plus...
Originally posted by Skoll Wolfrun
there should never be such a lopsided amount of VAs built on one side or another in 1 facet of the game.
There is only one come from behind VA right now: That is Comeback Kid. Clock Manager works equally regardless of the score (and is now so weak that no one should care what it does, anyway). I guess Big Heart still has scoring triggers, but the way they nerfed it they might as well have removed it.
Is one a lopsided number?
Oh, and the leading team almost always has higher morale. It doesn't need any VAs to pile more advantages on top of that.
Clock manager is not score based but it is situation/time based for late game, which is one of the things that helps the offense in late game situations. I'm talking about one teams offense, generally the losing teams offense, vs a winning teams defense. Clock manager is basically useless/pointless/illogical if you are in a situation where you are winning and still passing the ball so it really doesnt help a winning team at all.
clock manager is still a come from behind VA. Comeback Kid is a come from behind VA, OTK is a come from behind and hold the lead. So yes, it is 2-0-1. 2 is still a lopsided number when you take into consideration the situations at hand.
clock manager is still a come from behind VA. Comeback Kid is a come from behind VA, OTK is a come from behind and hold the lead. So yes, it is 2-0-1. 2 is still a lopsided number when you take into consideration the situations at hand.
Ken1
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Originally posted by gbororats
clock manager is still a come from behind VA. Comeback Kid is a come from behind VA, OTK is a come from behind and hold the lead. So yes, it is 2-0-1. 2 is still a lopsided number when you take into consideration the situations at hand.
I don't think you can count Clock Manager, which doesn't consider score and is now weak as hell.
But even if you do, that would make 2 "make the game more exciting" VAs, 0 "make the game more boring" VAs, and 1 "sometimes make the game more exciting and sometimes make it more boring" VA. That's better than adding "make the game more boring" VAs to add to the morale effect that the leading team generally already has an advantage in.
clock manager is still a come from behind VA. Comeback Kid is a come from behind VA, OTK is a come from behind and hold the lead. So yes, it is 2-0-1. 2 is still a lopsided number when you take into consideration the situations at hand.
I don't think you can count Clock Manager, which doesn't consider score and is now weak as hell.
But even if you do, that would make 2 "make the game more exciting" VAs, 0 "make the game more boring" VAs, and 1 "sometimes make the game more exciting and sometimes make it more boring" VA. That's better than adding "make the game more boring" VAs to add to the morale effect that the leading team generally already has an advantage in.
Edited by Ken1 on Mar 27, 2012 12:38:20
merenoise
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I think it would be better to add penalties to Comeback Kid than to add new VAs. Comebacks should be a rarity, not something that is highly likely due to late game stacks. The team that plays better for the first three quarters usually wins. Put in a Tebow-esque effect.
Make it so that you get the full bonus from Comeback Kid any time you are down at least 7 points but take a 1% penalty to catching and a 2% bonus to fumbling anytime you have at least a 7 point lead. That way offenses have a way to get the ball to their play-maker in comeback situations but have to weigh that against the fact that he won't be as effective when they are leading.
Guys with an offense bias won't like that as much but teams shouldn't really be penalized for being better than their opponent for the majority of the game which is exactly what the Comeback Kid / Clock Manager / Slow Starter / OT Killer / Big Heart stack does.
Make it so that you get the full bonus from Comeback Kid any time you are down at least 7 points but take a 1% penalty to catching and a 2% bonus to fumbling anytime you have at least a 7 point lead. That way offenses have a way to get the ball to their play-maker in comeback situations but have to weigh that against the fact that he won't be as effective when they are leading.
Guys with an offense bias won't like that as much but teams shouldn't really be penalized for being better than their opponent for the majority of the game which is exactly what the Comeback Kid / Clock Manager / Slow Starter / OT Killer / Big Heart stack does.
Edited by merenoise on Mar 27, 2012 12:53:20
nexill
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+1
a defensive stop in the last 2 minutes to preserve the win is just as exciting as an offensive score to take the lead.
a defensive stop in the last 2 minutes to preserve the win is just as exciting as an offensive score to take the lead.
Ken1
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This isn't an offense vs. defense thing to me. I'd be in favor of a "Comeback Defender" VA that gave, say, a 2%/level bonus to interception and force fumble chances when the defender's team is down by 7 points or more.
It's about the fact that the morale system makes comebacks too rare if left alone. The morale system is poorly conceived by making all players on a team play even better when winning. Comeback VAs are a very needed counter to that, and in reality there aren't enough of them (Comeback Kid is the only true one that isn't ridiculously weak).
Whenever a team loses late, the team gets pissed and thinks the VAs did it, which usually didn't happen but they have no way to know it...so we get any comeback VA nerfed into oblivion.
It's about the fact that the morale system makes comebacks too rare if left alone. The morale system is poorly conceived by making all players on a team play even better when winning. Comeback VAs are a very needed counter to that, and in reality there aren't enough of them (Comeback Kid is the only true one that isn't ridiculously weak).
Whenever a team loses late, the team gets pissed and thinks the VAs did it, which usually didn't happen but they have no way to know it...so we get any comeback VA nerfed into oblivion.
Originally posted by Ken1
This isn't an offense vs. defense thing to me. I'd be in favor of a "Comeback Defender" VA that gave, say, a 2%/level bonus to interception and force fumble chances when the defender's team is down by 7 points or more.
It's about the fact that the morale system makes comebacks too rare if left alone. The morale system is poorly conceived by making all players on a team play even better when winning. Comeback VAs are a very needed counter to that, and in reality there aren't enough of them (Comeback Kid is the only true one that isn't ridiculously weak).
Whenever a team loses late, the team gets pissed and thinks the VAs did it, which usually didn't happen but they have no way to know it...so we get any comeback VA nerfed into oblivion.
actually, it could come down to the sim now... you double team dots to prevent touchdowns and the double team does nothing because you have a 3 man rush... you blitz more, and you leave yourself open to single coverage. Its kinda a no win the way the sim is now.
you say morale doesnt allow for comebacks. How much is a teams morale in the dumper when they are only down by 3 or down by 7? I cant say that its huge
This isn't an offense vs. defense thing to me. I'd be in favor of a "Comeback Defender" VA that gave, say, a 2%/level bonus to interception and force fumble chances when the defender's team is down by 7 points or more.
It's about the fact that the morale system makes comebacks too rare if left alone. The morale system is poorly conceived by making all players on a team play even better when winning. Comeback VAs are a very needed counter to that, and in reality there aren't enough of them (Comeback Kid is the only true one that isn't ridiculously weak).
Whenever a team loses late, the team gets pissed and thinks the VAs did it, which usually didn't happen but they have no way to know it...so we get any comeback VA nerfed into oblivion.
actually, it could come down to the sim now... you double team dots to prevent touchdowns and the double team does nothing because you have a 3 man rush... you blitz more, and you leave yourself open to single coverage. Its kinda a no win the way the sim is now.
you say morale doesnt allow for comebacks. How much is a teams morale in the dumper when they are only down by 3 or down by 7? I cant say that its huge
Ken1
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Originally posted by gbororats
you say morale doesnt allow for comebacks. How much is a teams morale in the dumper when they are only down by 3 or down by 7? I cant say that its huge
Just to clarify, I don't say morale doesn't allow for comebacks. It just makes them harder. I think it's better if they're easier rather than harder, as long as it doesn't become so easy that it's actually as good to be behind as ahead or something.
What my nightmare would be would be to see "put the game away" VAs that would make comebacks against teams that had a lot of them next to impossible. That's not an offense vs. defense bias: By all means, give defensive players a comeback VA. That's a close, exciting game vs. runaway game bias.
It's very different from trying to force parity (at least IMO) because it doesn't take away anything for being better, or give any bonus for being worse: Its bonuses are for being behind...and if you aren't better when everything is considered, including VAs, you aren't really better.
you say morale doesnt allow for comebacks. How much is a teams morale in the dumper when they are only down by 3 or down by 7? I cant say that its huge
Just to clarify, I don't say morale doesn't allow for comebacks. It just makes them harder. I think it's better if they're easier rather than harder, as long as it doesn't become so easy that it's actually as good to be behind as ahead or something.
What my nightmare would be would be to see "put the game away" VAs that would make comebacks against teams that had a lot of them next to impossible. That's not an offense vs. defense bias: By all means, give defensive players a comeback VA. That's a close, exciting game vs. runaway game bias.
It's very different from trying to force parity (at least IMO) because it doesn't take away anything for being better, or give any bonus for being worse: Its bonuses are for being behind...and if you aren't better when everything is considered, including VAs, you aren't really better.
Edited by Ken1 on Mar 27, 2012 19:28:59
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