Warrior General Games

Originally posted by beenlurken
No one ever said you whined about the outcome of the game. I dont know why you keep repeating that.

There is NOT one aspect of GLB that accurately simulates professional football. For you to continue to single out and whine about ST's as if the stats there are anymore unrealistic than on O and D is getting to be ridiculous. With the limitations of a game centered around dice rolls it is impossible to accurately sim an NFL game. It just will never happen (again, dice rolls). Not to mention people want to see the dots that they paid good money for and spent 2 years of their precious time building rack up some stats... its the reason most voted for the game to allow us to do so way back when.

Just give it up already yello.

It was you that kept attacking me for whining, whining about the score, losing, would be the only thing to whine about. Whining being petty BS thats not warranted. That I lost to a better team would be a whine if I complained about that. But I didnt, quite the contrary.

Not liking how the game sims, however, is not whining. I am a paying customer and voicing my opinion on the quality of the product I am receiving is NOT whining. That's legitimate complaint making. Thats like saying someone sending cold food back to the cook is whining, it aint. Might not be wise, but its not whining.

As for not ONE simmed right. hmm maybe. But thats not a reason not to complain about each thing thats wrong. And if you think the only thing I have btched about being wrong in this game is the ST play, you havent been paying attention. Chemistry overdone, Morale Spiral, Scoring in General, its all broken and all come under my digital rant rage at some time or another. Other stuff too but don't keep a record of it all.

As for the notion that you can't make a random game sim accurately, that simply not true. Its not rocket science. If the chances of a fumble is 30% now and that gives you twice as many fumbles than there should be, you lower the percentages in the model, like half. Tweak it till the stats churning out the azz end of the program are all in the range of stats generated in the pro game you are simulating. Same same everything else. The game is just numbers in a can. If the results arent right, you change the numbers. Its not like Bort did some huge physics study to give us the math we have now, after all. He made it up. And he made it up wrong. Fix it. QED.

Now as to thinking people want super stats, thats just silly. Not that they dont want that, but its not a PVE game, there isnt an AI Environment to wrack your stats up against (well there SHOULDNT be anyway). To say you are giving the customer what he wants by selling him 225 point wins is saying also that you think you are giving the guys on the other side of that loss what THEY want, and thats obviously silliness personified. I think the declining numbers tells the tale as to how that is working out for Bort.

No one is going to quit because their guy only forced or coughed up 1 FF in a game. But they may well if their guy dropped 10 of them. I mean can you imagine if that was your ONLY player??? Why bother to log in the next day? Or month? No, I do not think thats a smart business choice, nor a good simulation.

But enough said. At least I see you know what I am talking about finally.

GLB is not football

the end

Originally posted by yello1
Not liking how the game sims, however, is not whining. I am a paying customer and voicing my opinion on the quality of the product I am receiving is NOT whining. That's legitimate complaint making. Thats like saying someone sending cold food back to the cook is whining, it aint. Might not be wise, but its not whining.

You are using the wrong analogy... the right analogy would be you ordering a cheeseburger and when the waiter brings the cheeseburger out you send it back because you thought you were ordering steak. That is whining... you screwed up... you have no right to make a complaint. Taking some responsibility for your actions.

Originally posted by yello1
As for the notion that you can't make a random game sim accurately, that simply not true. Its not rocket science. If the chances of a fumble is 30% now and that gives you twice as many fumbles than there should be, you lower the percentages in the model, like half.

It is not that simple... there are many variables to consider... variables that would lead to a 30% chance of a great ST unit forcing a fumble on your ST unit yet only a 5% (this defines realistic for the sake of this argument) chance of that same great ST unit forcing a fumble an great ST unit that is on its level (above the level of your ST unit.. just to be clear). Your team may have the potential to function as a team with 5% fumble chance but the choices you have made with it are preventing you from achieving it. That said, you are suggesting that they nerf fumbles such that your 30% chance of fumbling against a great ST's that is better than yours is down to 5%, which would effectively make fumbles non-existent between two equally great ST's. You have to see how that is ridiculous.

All we are asking is for you to take some responsibility for what happened in that game. Instead, you placed 100% of the blame on the SIM.. whine about in one thread here... started another thread here (to which no one replied)... and then ran off to the suggestions to start a "game is broken" whine thread.

Originally posted by zulu1128
Originally posted by SLZmonster

they going down in week 14!

We just wanna keep it close.

How close?

Originally posted by Todd Toddy
How close?

Somewhat close.

I wish there was a fair catch option for kick offs and punts. Seems like an easy thing to add and would be really helpful against fumble forcing coverage teams.

Originally posted by markm6770
I wish there was a fair catch option for kick offs and punts. Seems like an easy thing to add and would be really helpful against fumble forcing coverage teams.



This is a great suggestion for a solution to the problem. It doesn't seem like it would be a major sim change, and thus could be done in a reasonable amount of effort. It would allow a bit more strategy to STs and allow a team to choose to sacrifice some return yards for the safety of a fair catch.

TBH, the impact of build differences is part and parcel with the way the game is coded and from what I have seen over 21 seasons (was not here for S1), Bort can not code the game such that small build differences result in small differences in performance. It is either lots of performance (i.e. FF) or no performance.

I dont see a problem with allowing punt returners to call a fair catch everytime.

I do have a problem with allowing KO's to be fair caught though. We already have the option to down it in the EZ and take it out the the 20.

Originally posted by beenlurken
I dont see a problem with allowing punt returners to call a fair catch everytime.

I do have a problem with allowing KO's to be fair caught though. We already have the option to down it in the EZ and take it out the the 20.



You could even give kickers the option to squib kick to negate the fair catch on kickoffs. Of course these kicks would be much shorter, so the kicking team would in turn be giving up field position.

Originally posted by Plankton
Originally posted by markm6770

I wish there was a fair catch option for kick offs and punts. Seems like an easy thing to add and would be really helpful against fumble forcing coverage teams.



This is a great suggestion for a solution to the problem. It doesn't seem like it would be a major sim change, and thus could be done in a reasonable amount of effort. It would allow a bit more strategy to STs and allow a team to choose to sacrifice some return yards for the safety of a fair catch.

TBH, the impact of build differences is part and parcel with the way the game is coded and from what I have seen over 21 seasons (was not here for S1), Bort can not code the game such that small build differences result in small differences in performance. It is either lots of performance (i.e. FF) or no performance.

Of course he COULD. It wouldn't be hard at all.

But it might be that its still more work than he cares to do.

Originally posted by beenlurken
Originally posted by yello1

Not liking how the game sims, however, is not whining. I am a paying customer and voicing my opinion on the quality of the product I am receiving is NOT whining. That's legitimate complaint making. Thats like saying someone sending cold food back to the cook is whining, it aint. Might not be wise, but its not whining.

You are using the wrong analogy... the right analogy would be you ordering a cheeseburger and when the waiter brings the cheeseburger out you send it back because you thought you were ordering steak. That is whining... you screwed up... you have no right to make a complaint. Taking some responsibility for your actions.



::

I have NO responsibility, because I didnt code the game in such a way as to allow results that are not in the range of NFL scoring. My responsibility is building a build that would give up 1 or 2 fumbles and not get good field position against a perfect ST squad in the NFL. It ends there, because thats all that would result in an NFL simulation. After that its all on bort and after that is what I am bitching about.

Stop blaming the player or the build for a bad system.

I think we have gone round the bend on this enough. You arent getting it. Get over your uber build and realize its (the complaint) is nothing to do with them or the DC, its the game systems basic math at generating chances for fumbles versus the chances that exist in reality.

Originally posted by beenlurken
It is not that simple... there are many variables to consider... variables that would lead to a 30% chance of a great ST unit forcing a fumble on your ST unit yet only a 5% (this defines realistic for the sake of this argument) chance of that same great ST unit forcing a fumble an great ST unit that is on its level (above the level of your ST unit.. just to be clear). Your team may have the potential to function as a team with 5% fumble chance but the choices you have made with it are preventing you from achieving it. That said, you are suggesting that they nerf fumbles such that your 30% chance of fumbling against a great ST's that is better than yours is down to 5%, which would effectively make fumbles non-existent between two equally great ST's. You have to see how that is ridiculous.

All we are asking is for you to take some responsibility for what happened in that game. Instead, you placed 100% of the blame on the SIM.. whine about in one thread here... started another thread here (to which no one replied)... and then ran off to the suggestions to start a "game is broken" whine thread.



No, because there is nothing in the laws of physics nature or computer coding that requires your chances to be linear across all pairings of performance. You can do anything you need to do to generate realistic results. When writing code you are literally making up your universe and all that lies within.

So you could, for instance, have a base chance that gets you a FF at a normal rate (as what might happen in a Pats Steelers game) that increases but does not skyrocket when you play the Cleveland Browns. This could be a sliding scale of effect of differences in stats or a cap on how much bonus you get from AEQ or VA SA boosts to FFs, or just a hard cap percentage that never goes above 10% so your build is working a range from 5 to 10% etc etc. More ways than you can shake a stick at to deal with it. Not complicated not impossible. Just have to figure out what generates the results desired and code and test it.

Originally posted by yello1
Originally posted by Plankton

I guess.

It's like this tho. I pretty much know that my wife hates it when she asks me to do something, i agree to do it, then my lazy slack ass doesn't do it. Thus, if I expect that scenario to play out (like it does most weekends that she goes shopping and tries to give me a honey do list), I can easily predict her unhappy reaction to me. Doesn't make her a bad person.

In this case, I know that yello gets pissed when his team fumbles alot on ST. I know that my team is similar to BPN's and forces alot of ST fumbles. As mentioned above, we forced 2 fumbles on ST against BPN (altho neither was recovered) and we just got done forcing 6 against Florida. Thus, it seemed like a pretty reasonable prediction that yello will be unhappy again.

Oh I thought you meant the score.

Thanks for the warning.

Maybe I will skip watching the game then. Expect to lose but watching the guy spin the ball on the carpet gets old.

Darn you Plankton!!!

I dont watch and get three KR TBacks!!!!

Course he did ALSO drop the ball three times.

Nutty system.

I should have game planned might have made it interesting. But you demoralized me you clever microscopic creature.

LOL just realized all the scoring was KRs. Was about to see what the O did different. Answer nothing, lol.

There have been 17 punts returned for tds in the WL so far this season and WL teams average 13-14 yards per PR... as of a couple games ago there were 108 ST fumbles (probably near 120+ish now). Why would anyone at that level not call for a fair catch if it were an option? Granted there is less a fumble per game (and thats fumbles not fumbles lost) there but the chances of a td are so rare and whats the big deal about sacrificing 13-14 yards on every punt just to eliminate the potential of a turnover? You are just going to be eliminating punt returns from the game for the most part...

Kickoffs dont need to be touched... the fair catch/squib system you propose is pretty much already in place. Return team has the option not to return any kicks from the EZ (they risk not making it to the 20 and turning over by taking out) and the KO team has a choice of using a kick to kick into the EZ to discourage the return team from returning or using a kicker that keeps it in play that allows the gunners to do their work (but also gives up better field position and more potential for tds).

It really is fine the way it is... some just need to pay it a little more attention and it wont be a problem for them. The DevDev/OTM game was a perfect example today... OTM's risk/reward with their aggressive approach (returner built to make plays but vulnerable to FF's as a result... and strategy of returning out of the EZ instead of save "kneel") led to 3 fumbles and 3 return tds.

Originally posted by beenlurken
There have been 17 punts returned for tds in the WL so far this season and WL teams average 13-14 yards per PR... as of a couple games ago there were 108 ST fumbles (probably near 120+ish now). Why would anyone at that level not call for a fair catch if it were an option? Granted there is less a fumble per game (and thats fumbles not fumbles lost) there but the chances of a td are so rare and whats the big deal about sacrificing 13-14 yards on every punt just to eliminate the potential of a turnover? You are just going to be eliminating punt returns from the game for the most part...

Kickoffs dont need to be touched... the fair catch/squib system you propose is pretty much already in place. Return team has the option not to return any kicks from the EZ (they risk not making it to the 20 and turning over by taking out) and the KO team has a choice of using a kick to kick into the EZ to discourage the return team from returning or using a kicker that keeps it in play that allows the gunners to do their work (but also gives up better field position and more potential for tds).

It really is fine the way it is... some just need to pay it a little more attention and it wont be a problem for them. The DevDev/OTM game was a perfect example today... OTM's risk/reward with their aggressive approach (returner built to make plays but vulnerable to FF's as a result... and strategy of returning out of the EZ instead of save "kneel") led to 3 fumbles and 3 return tds.

Look. Try to stop thinking and just listen.

If there is ever a 6 FF on returns, no matter WHAT you do on STs (barring putting your QB in there) then the system is not working because its not simulating pro football results.

It doesnt matter how I set the team up or how the build is done, because in all the 75 year history of the NFL all those crappy mistakes will have been made by someone, but yet the sheer nature of the game is such that they have NEVER given up that many FFs on returns in a game.

If your game allows it, then thats a broken simulation of pro football.

I dont know how else to explain it to you, you need to back up and realize that saying players should build a safety net for Borts bad system so it doesnt generate the broken results misses the point so badly as to make it sound like you are not listening.

The system should be the safety net for that, the system should be built to not allow 6FFs because the chances are not that high.

That said I do appreciate your tips. Its just that in a proper simulation those tips should be the difference between 0 FFs a gamer and 1 or 2 or 3, whatever the NFL range is. Not 0 or 6 (or 20).