Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Hagalaz
Unless you raise your first attribute real high, which won't be done in most positions,.

Define real high? Most positions I build I plan on taking the first attribute to at least 81 cap. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

Also - Just because you are multi-training for a long time, it doesn't mean you always have to multi-train. Let's say you have agility at 28.5 and you are going to want to cap it next, but you are done with strength. There is nothing to prevent you from training agility on normal until it gets to 32.5 and then train it up to the proper % for capping and then cap when he levels up. You can then go back to multi-training.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard
Define real high? Most positions I build I plan on taking the first attribute to at least 81 cap. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

Also - Just because you are multi-training for a long time, it doesn't mean you always have to multi-train. Let's say you have agility at 28.5 and you are going to want to cap it next, but you are done with strength. There is nothing to prevent you from training agility on normal until it gets to 32.5 and then train it up to the proper % for capping and then cap when he levels up. You can then go back to multi-training.


And just because you want to multi-train for a long time, doesn't mean you have to start immediately. I can't find any way to make multi-training the 2nd attribute fit into a build plan simply because we either barely touch it with multi-train and do the most with intense and normal to get it ready to cap or we waste ALGs.

Doing 3-4-5-6 and so on makes sense. 2-3-4-5 does not, I mean sure, you can do it for 1-3 training sessions, but that's most likely a very small difference. You're gonna have to swap to normal/intense real quick to get it in place.

But the biggest issue is not just starting too soon, it's also for how long to do it. Unless you plan on multi-training after every cap (which I honestly didn't calculate yet, but once again it seems there's no time for it) it looks like it will be a waste of training sessions either early on or later on. It would take like 24-28 days to raise an attribute from 48,08 - 50,08, for example, and you're planning on (if I understood correctly) keeping the same last 3 attributes of the multi-train even at very ineffective points. That's no good, man.

Originally posted by Hagalaz
Originally posted by Rage Kinard

Define real high? Most positions I build I plan on taking the first attribute to at least 81 cap. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

Also - Just because you are multi-training for a long time, it doesn't mean you always have to multi-train. Let's say you have agility at 28.5 and you are going to want to cap it next, but you are done with strength. There is nothing to prevent you from training agility on normal until it gets to 32.5 and then train it up to the proper % for capping and then cap when he levels up. You can then go back to multi-training.


And just because you want to multi-train for a long time, doesn't mean you have to start immediately. I can't find any way to make multi-training the 2nd attribute fit into a build plan simply because we either barely touch it with multi-train and do the most with intense and normal to get it ready to cap or we waste ALGs.

Doing 3-4-5-6 and so on makes sense. 2-3-4-5 does not, I mean sure, you can do it for 1-3 training sessions, but that's most likely a very small difference. You're gonna have to swap to normal/intense real quick to get it in place.

But the biggest issue is not just starting too soon, it's also for how long to do it. Unless you plan on multi-training after every cap (which I honestly didn't calculate yet, but once again it seems there's no time for it) it looks like it will be a waste of training sessions either early on or later on. It would take like 24-28 days to raise an attribute from 48,08 - 50,08, for example, and you're planning on (if I understood correctly) keeping the same last 3 attributes of the multi-train even at very ineffective points. That's no good, man.
You flat out have no idea what you are talking about, and have done none of the math or research. Count trophies son, i see almost none on you or your players.

Frankly if you aren't smart enough to figure out how your second attribute reaches a capable point by the time your first is done capping, perhaps you should stick to a hobby that involves putting square pegs in squared holes. Trash talk aside here is the basic math.

You take your first attribute to 25 at creation, hopefully to 27 with height/weight. You put your remaining points into second attribute, making it between 16-20. Your first attribute is trained on normal until it reaches roughly 30 and 90+ Percent. This ability will then be capped at level 2-3, and continued on until it reaches above 72 at least. That should take you until level 16 or so to accomplish. After your first reaches 30, you should have enough BT to start quad training. You should get at least 14 quad trains in before you are ready to cap second ability. 14 quad trains, at an average of .60% is 8-9 points. Natural increases from 1-16 is about 8 points.

This means 2nd ability started at 16-20, gained 16-17 points and is now 32-37...This is very cap-able for second stat.

Starting as soon as posible is VITALLY important, because the train % values are so rediculously high at early levels, you get more bang for your buck.

In conclusion, pull head from rectum, and use it before posting about a subject you know crap about.

Originally posted by Shrazkil

You flat out have no idea what you are talking about, and have done none of the math or research. Count trophies son, i see almost none on you or your players.

Right, because trophies make it easier for people to do math. Wait, no, no they don't.


Originally posted by Shrazkil

Frankly if you aren't smart enough to figure out how your second attribute reaches a capable point by the time your first is done capping, perhaps you should stick to a hobby that involves putting square pegs in squared holes. Trash talk aside here is the basic math.

Math which you fail to deliver while I for several times have put my calculations on the forum including exact days which you train in X manner, purchas Y training enhance or unlock attribute Z. If I'm wrong, then it should be really simple for _YOU_ to show your math and thus prove me wrong, no?


Originally posted by Shrazkil
You take your first attribute to 25 at creation, hopefully to 27 with height/weight. You put your remaining points into second attribute, making it between 16-20. Your first attribute is trained on normal until it reaches roughly 30 and 90+ Percent. This ability will then be capped at level 2-3
For some positions I preffer capping at level 1. For example for a QB, you'd be a fool not to take advantage of extra 0.67 of ALGs or 1.23 if you cap on level 3.

Originally posted by Shrazkil
, and continued on until it reaches above 72 at least. That should take you until level 16 or so to accomplish. After your first reaches 30, you should have enough BT to start quad training. You should get at least 14 quad trains in before you are ready to cap second ability. 14 quad trains, at an average of .60% is 8-9 points. Natural increases from 1-16 is about 8 points.

This means 2nd ability started at 16-20, gained 16-17 points and is now 32-37...This is very cap-able for second stat.

14 quad trains means 56 days, if you cap as you said at level 2-3, this means days 4 to 10 of the player's first season, at which point you have a maximum of 38 to 50 BTs and would end up starting your 2nd attribute on the 4th day of the 2nd season assuming you cap at two.. Even if you didn't unlock any enhance on the first attribute (frankly, the first 10% is worth it), this means you'd spend 30 of those unlocking multi-training, being left with 8 to 20. If you cap at level two as you said, you will have only the means to purchase one 10% enhance, which I assume you use on your 2nd attribute. at 16 this means approximately 60% training with only the first 10% enhance. you'd need 1 session to get the other enhance, meaning in the end you'd get 0.6 + 13 * 0.66 = 9 points. For, let's say, a LB or something, you'd get 0.5 growth for each of your majors, meaning you'd get 7.5 points from ALG, meaning you'd have left your attribute at 31.5. Yes, you can cap now, but there's just one small tiny detail here:

You've neither trained your first attribute to 95%+ nor the 2nd to 95%+. This can be a huge gain of value for your build, and you don't seem to want to train attributes immediately after the hit the cap, which can also be a gain. You'd hit level 16 on the 8th day of your player's 2nd season assuming max exp and boosts on the first seasons' offseason. This means you have 8 days only to get the attributes to 95+% and/or train them over the cap.

Now I would accept it if you had taken this into consideration, even if only by multi training your 2nd attribute 1 point or so over the cap and left it again at 95%+, because this gives much better value out of your training than what your secondary attributes will be trained at considering the amount of time you'll be multi-training them. If you gain value on a few attributes but lose on the others, then it's just a consideration of whether or not those secondary attributes are important or not, I'd frankly prefer NOT losing training value on the secondary attributes, even if it means multi-training for a smaller amount of time, considering in the end the effective SP value we get from training will be the same and my method gives me more freedom to create the best 4 pieces of AEQ/enhance training higher.


Originally posted by Shrazkil

In conclusion, pull head from rectum, and use it before posting about a subject you know crap about.

In conclusion, you can't prove me wrong with words, use numbers, exact days is even best.

Originally posted by Hagalaz


14 quad trains means 56 days, if you cap as you said at level 2-3, this means days 4 to 10 of the player's first season, at which point you have a maximum of 38 to 50 BTs and would end up starting your 2nd attribute on the 4th day of the 2nd season assuming you cap at two.. Even if you didn't unlock any enhance on the first attribute (frankly, the first 10% is worth it), this means you'd spend 30 of those unlocking multi-training, being left with 8 to 20. If you cap at level two as you said, you will have only the means to purchase one 10% enhance, which I assume you use on your 2nd attribute. at 16 this means approximately 60% training with only the first 10% enhance. you'd need 1 session to get the other enhance, meaning in the end you'd get 0.6 + 13 * 0.66 = 9 points. For, let's say, a LB or something, you'd get 0.5 growth for each of your majors, meaning you'd get 7.5 points from ALG, meaning you'd have left your attribute at 31.5. Yes, you can cap now, but there's just one small tiny detail here:.


You start with 10 BT and 8 bonus tokens.

Let's take DT. I start him out with 26.44 strength and 19.44 agility.
I spend 5 BT to get the 10% upgrade on strength leaving me with 5 BT.
I train 4 times on normal and go to 27.44 and I have 13 BT.
I train from day 42 to day 46 on normal and go to 28.44 and I have 21 BT
I train on day 47, day -8, -7, -6 and he is at 29.44 and I have 29 BT
I then train on normal -5, -4, -3, -2 and he is at 30.44 and I have 37 BT.
I then train on normal/relaxed until he is above 95% trained. It should be day 2 or 3.
(also, this can be thrown off by a bonus to training which is likely to happen 2x during that time period so I won't really have to train this long)

Now he is at 30.44 (levels up to 30.99) is over 95% trained and I have 52 BT. I spend 18 sp to get him to 48.94 and have 2 sp left over, so 50.94. At level 3 53.44 with 1 sp. At level 4 56.99. At level 5 59.44 with 1 sp. At level 6 61.94 with 1 sp. At level 7 64.44. At level 8 66.94. At level 9 68.44 with 2 sp. At level 11 72.44. At level 12 73.94 with 1 sp. At level 13 75.44 with 1 sp. At level 14 76.94 with 1 sp. At level 15 78.44 with 1 sp.

Even if I'm stopping at the 78 cap now, I'm well into season 2, and I have 1 sp for the 2nd attribute. It takes to level 18 before I can cap the 2nd attribute, and I don't have to cap until just before he hits 19 around day 30. If I'm going to the 81 cap, then I don't have to worry about it until the end of season 2. And I can still manipulate the training so that agility is above 95% before I start to cap.

Originally posted by Rage Kinard

Even if I'm stopping at the 78 cap now, I'm well into season 2, and I have 1 sp for the 2nd attribute. It takes to level 18 before I can cap the 2nd attribute, and I don't have to cap until just before he hits 19 around day 30. If I'm going to the 81 cap, then I don't have to worry about it until the end of season 2. And I can still manipulate the training so that agility is above 95% before I start to cap.


Wait 1 minute, if you're finishing strength at level 15, you're gonna do it in season 2 day 2 with max exp, not "well into season 2". That means you have even less time, but if you plan on spending points in agility only when you can cap it it actually makes sense. I usually focus on getting to the point I want with training and then dump SP even if I can't cap yet, considering I won't train it again before the first cap.

I see where you're going with this, but I still don't know how you plan on training your multi-attributes, cause it still seems like you'll be training them at inefficient thresholds (like say 42-46ish).

Well Rage is one of the best, if not, the best DT builders in the game. I would listen to him, and not argue with him. He has put in the time and done the research.

Originally posted by UnderDogs
Well Rage is one of the best, if not, the best DT builders in the game. I would listen to him, and not argue with him. He has put in the time and done the research.

Yes, and because he has put in the time and done the research, no one else can have put in the time and done research right? WRONG.

Discussion is not bad, it is good, it is how the world advances.

Originally posted by Hagalaz
Originally posted by UnderDogs

Well Rage is one of the best, if not, the best DT builders in the game. I would listen to him, and not argue with him. He has put in the time and done the research.

Yes, and because he has put in the time and done the research, no one else can have put in the time and done research right? WRONG.

Discussion is not bad, it is good, it is how the world advances.
Yes but discussion with someone who is essentially a newb, and is looking for an idiots guide to understanding quad training, is not productive.

Most people will not give day by day planning on builds, it takes way too much time, and it gives away way too much information on your builds and strategies. Helping by giving the basic strategy is fine, but you want too much.

We could argue whether i have a duck... I could place the duck in front of your face, you would rebut by saying " i need DNA proof its a duck" or Where is its birth certificate.

i dont think hagalaz is asking for a day by day training guide. he, himself, is also one of the better known builders in the game. im sure he is quite capable of making great builds, whether or not he follows whatever plan rage is using.

Originally posted by Shrazkil

Yes but discussion with someone who is essentially a newb, and is looking for an idiots guide to understanding quad training, is not productive.

Most people will not give day by day planning on builds, it takes way too much time, and it gives away way too much information on your builds and strategies. Helping by giving the basic strategy is fine, but you want too much.

We could argue whether i have a duck... I could place the duck in front of your face, you would rebut by saying " i need DNA proof its a duck" or Where is its birth certificate.



Are you INSANE??? If you want stupid analogies, that's me giving proof it's a goose and you saying "no, it's a duck, and I can't give proof because it takes too long". Yeah. Right.

Look, treat me like a noob if you want. Time will tell who's right.

fwiw, this entire argument is between like 3-5 points end build. oops.

Originally posted by Hagalaz


I see where you're going with this, but I still don't know how you plan on training your multi-attributes, cause it still seems like you'll be training them at inefficient thresholds (like say 42-46ish).

I won't, unless maybe it's an attribute I don't plan on spending sp in or training after the first cap. I hate doing any training between 37-48.

Originally posted by Worker 3
i dont think hagalaz is asking for a day by day training guide. he, himself, is also one of the better known builders in the game. im sure he is quite capable of making great builds, whether or not he follows whatever plan rage is using.

I'm not saying his plan is right or wrong, I'm just saying that Shrazkil's path has the potential to be as efficient and possibly more. Or in other words, both methods are viable. Also, a guide shouldn't be followed strictly. It should serve as a general approach. There are times that deviation is necessary, and you have to be able to detect when you should do so.

I think the main issue, is that it seems Hagalaz is not actually doing the work, or has never tried quad training on a dummy DOT. I made almost a dozen dummy players, and tested fastest ways to reach cap points, and most effect use of the first 48 BT assuming an eight day offseason and 6 day pre-season.

I have no idea if he is a knowledgable builder or not, but if i look at a profile and see almost no trophies, or little to no player awards/low level players, i am inclined to doubt the validity of their arguments. Rage Kinard's build path, shows IMO the most effective start for almost any posiition. Personal preference being the use of the extra 15 BT before starting quad training.

So far the only builds that do not benefit from almost immediate quad training, are ones with low primary cap goals, and most people consider these non world league calibre players. For example if you only plan on taking your first attribute to 68, then you will need to have intense/normal trained your second ability several days longer before starting the quad training.