Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Djinnt
Yeah but older players aren't nearly as efficiently built. A lot of different things worked that won't work in the future. Take for instance the fact that speedster wideouts can easily get 135+ speed with the new player creation system and not take any real hit to their secondary attributes.
And yes, my guy is focused on forcing fumbles.

you also forget the high agility players [90+ agility]. not every WR is going to be a speedster. and even then, what do you think the FS is for?
sub 110 SS's will still be effective as long as their agility is high enough. and im pretty sure most gms would prefer a 100+ 70+ SS than a 110+ 60+ SS. [assuming both players vision is similar]
on the other hand a sub 110 speed FS will not get it done.

Originally posted by Gaz

My LvL 70 guy is very balanced and has always been in top 5 SS's in his league, splitting time with another quality SS. Speed to 74 should be enough for a good balanced SS build.


Originally posted by Djinnt
Yeah but older players aren't nearly as efficiently built. A lot of different things worked that won't work in the future. Take for instance the fact that speedster wideouts can easily get 135+ speed with the new player creation system and not take any real hit to their secondary attributes.
And yes, my guy is focused on forcing fumbles.

There is probably some truth to what both of you are saying.....I agree the older builds are less efficient but I also agree that the push to bring speed to 100+ isn't necessarily the way you have to go to build an effective SS.

Similar to Gaz, I have a more unconventional build and have split time with good safeties almost my entire career. That being said, Sir Monte was the 3 ranked SS in SEA Pro last year and the 20th ranked defensive player in the conference. I think alot of people would not guess that if they look strictly at the Speed/Agility numbers on him.

Sir Monte (Lv. 70 SS)
Ht/Wt: 6'0", 224lbs

Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 69.58
Speed: 91.01 (+28)
Agility: 62.9
Jumping: 17.51
Stamina: 51.58
Vision: 67.15
Confidence: 61.88

Football Skills
Blocking: 17.51
Catching: 17.51
Tackling: 85.5 (+14)
Throwing: 10
Carrying: 17.51
Kicking: 10
Punting: 8

Special Abilities
Coverage Abilities
Change Direction: 5
Superior Vision: 10
Swat Ball: 0
Sticky Hands: 0
Closing Speed: 0

Hard Hitter Abilities
Wrap Up Tackle: 10
Diving Tackle: 8
Growl: 10
Big Hit: 10
Monster Hit: 10

Originally posted by Djinnt
Yeah but older players aren't nearly as efficiently built.

This older player begs to differ.

"THUNDER GOD" (Lv. 60 SS)

Ht/Wt: 6'0", 224lbs


Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 63.2
Speed: 94.2 (+26)
Agility: 80.79 (+10)
Jumping: 48.79
Stamina: 48.2
Vision: 69.62
Confidence: 48.79

Football Skills
Blocking: 24.79
Catching: 48.79
Tackling: 62.87
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 19.79
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8

Special Abilities
Coverage Abilities
Change Direction: 6
Superior Vision: 8
Swat Ball: 2
Sticky Hands: 3
Closing Speed: 4

Hard Hitter Abilities
Wrap Up Tackle: 2
Diving Tackle: 2
Growl: 2
Big Hit: 2
Monster Hit: 7

My uneducated plan was by level 60 to have ...

100 speed
90 agility
70 strength
70 vision
70 tackling

... with my main VAs being CD, SV and MH.

Results have been lame thus far, but I've got nearly no stamina/confidence and play back in a Cover 2.

Originally posted by AlexBlack6
you also forget the high agility players [90+ agility]. not every WR is going to be a speedster. and even then, what do you think the FS is for?
sub 110 SS's will still be effective as long as their agility is high enough. and im pretty sure most gms would prefer a 100+ 70+ SS than a 110+ 60+ SS. [assuming both players vision is similar]
on the other hand a sub 110 speed FS will not get it done.

Yeah, my own WR has 90/90 but I was just giving an example of what high speed these days is. It's a different story entirely from before, where 115 was the highest you'd see on anybody at level 56.
But for a SS you're not pumping speed that high only to keep up with anybody, you're doing it to make the play as quickly as you possibly can. There's no guarantee, even with 70+ vision and superior vision SA (which I will definitely endorse) that your SS will be on top of the ball as the play develops.
As for GMs preferring 100/70, I'm one GM that doesn't. I can't really speak for everyone, but personal experience tells me that high agility isn't required for an SS with a run primary focus, and the way I personally DC, zone selection has more to do with successful safety use in pass protection than does build (assuming it isn't terrible obv).

Originally posted by sooner_nation
This older player begs to differ.

"THUNDER GOD" (Lv. 60 SS)

Ht/Wt: 6'0", 224lbs


Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 63.2
Speed: 94.2 (+26)
Agility: 79.79 (+10)
Jumping: 48.79
Stamina: 48.2
Vision: 69.62
Confidence: 48.79

Football Skills
Blocking: 24.79
Catching: 48.79
Tackling: 62.87
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 19.79
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8

Special Abilities
Coverage Abilities
Change Direction: 6
Superior Vision: 8
Swat Ball: 2
Sticky Hands: 3
Closing Speed: 4

Hard Hitter Abilities
Wrap Up Tackle: 2
Diving Tackle: 2
Growl: 2
Big Hit: 2
Monster Hit: 7




Pretty sweet.

Originally posted by Djinnt
Yeah, my own WR has 90/90 but I was just giving an example of what high speed these days is. It's a different story entirely from before, where 115 was the highest you'd see on anybody at level 56.
But for a SS you're not pumping speed that high only to keep up with anybody, you're doing it to make the play as quickly as you possibly can. There's no guarantee, even with 70+ vision and superior vision SA (which I will definitely endorse) that your SS will be on top of the ball as the play develops.

thats what the Closing Speed SA is for

Originally posted by AlexBlack6
thats what the Closing Speed SA is for

On a purely logical basis it's a much better idea to simply have higher speed/reactionary capabilities, than to go down an entire tree of focus specific SAs to get one high enough at double cost that only works situationally to achieve the same thing.

High speed will help you all over the field, wherever the ball is. Closing speed only helps when the carrier is down field from you a certain number of yards.

I understand if some of you, for whatever reason, want to have lower than 110 speed. All I'm saying is, I think that's a bad idea given the way player building has been going over the last few seasons.

Here is the thing, ultimately. Any D. Coordinator worth his salt will be able to utilize any SS build. If a D.C. is going to put a SS in coverage of a #1 or #2 WR when the SS has 90 speed... they are just asking to get beat. However, if that D.C. uses that same SS for coverage in the middle as well as run support with some deep coverage as well... that D.C. is using his players better.

That said, every SS does not have to have 110+ speed to be effective because it comes down to the game planning and how a position/player is utilized.

On a personal note, I prefer bumping up stamina so the starting safeties play more than 75% of the plays if not more. Why? You know what you are working with the majority of the time otherwise you need to find two similar builds which is difficult to do. That said, stopping speed at 61 or 68 is good enough because either of those two points allows for a SS build that is more team oriented. A person taking speed to 74 right away further specializes the SS position in order to do fewer things and be effective.

Originally posted by Djinnt
On a purely logical basis it's a much better idea to simply have higher speed/reactionary capabilities, than to go down an entire tree of focus specific SAs to get one high enough at double cost that only works situationally to achieve the same thing.

High speed will help you all over the field, wherever the ball is. Closing speed only helps when the carrier is down field from you a certain number of yards.

I understand if some of you, for whatever reason, want to have lower than 110 speed. All I'm saying is, I think that's a bad idea given the way player building has been going over the last few seasons.

well you're obviously not going to have only 1 SA.
i myself have 2 peices of AEQ on with SV and one with Closing Speed. so in reallity i only need to get them to around 4-5 to max them out completely. ultimately saving me SP's to use on other aspects of his build.
plus, with the current VA's such as zone specialist and ball hawk, there really is no "need" to have 110+ speed

Originally posted by Djinnt
On a purely logical basis it's a much better idea to simply have higher speed/reactionary capabilities, than to go down an entire tree of focus specific SAs to get one high enough at double cost that only works situationally to achieve the same thing.

High speed will help you all over the field, wherever the ball is. Closing speed only helps when the carrier is down field from you a certain number of yards.

I understand if some of you, for whatever reason, want to have lower than 110 speed. All I'm saying is, I think that's a bad idea given the way player building has been going over the last few seasons.

If a safety has only 70 or lower agility; I'm pretty certain he's not using all of that 110 speed. Give me 100/90 any day. Or, 95/85 for that matter.

First scrimmage last night. The middle belongs to me.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=899734&pbp_id=229495 PD. WR had 104 speed 85 agility.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=899734&pbp_id=229532 PD. WR had 115 speed 83 agility.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=899734&pbp_id=232536 INT. WR had 108 speed 90 agility

This was with my SS 94/80 people. Lets not forget that safety's get to play with one hell of a cushion. They also get to run down hill and pick up speed when they see a pass develop. Let's also not forget that most WR's even if they have 110+ speed; 1. without alot of agility they won't reach that top speed. 2. if you have an effective pass rush the QB has to get rid of the rock long before they can get down field enough to reach that speed.

So, what does this mean? It means SS's don't have to have 110 speed. Don't make me have to come back here and teach this again. just kidding.

Originally posted by Djinnt
Originally posted by DarrenAl

to have 77+ natural speed without enough Agility is quite unuseful... u'll never get the maximum speed during an action. Imho at early levels, 68 is enough.

As said pay attention on vision and agy (obviously after speed) but don't forget both str and tkl... ok, you are a safety, but quite often the player will be used as addictional LB or run stopper support.

Planning to play well "at early levels" is a pretty bad idea, no offense.
By the time you're level 35 you'll have your tertiary attributes respectable, and to be honest with you my own SS never went past 60 natural agility and I'm never raising it again. It's an entirely overrated attribute and the misconception that you 'require' some amount (especially some magical ratio to your speed) for your player to accelerate well is false and fabricated.
Point in case, there are many defensive players on my SS's team who have well over 70 agility and close to my SS's speed (he is the highest on the team, as it should be) yet he amasses the most ST tackles. This not only implies he has enough agility to accelerate quickly enough to get there before anyone else but he has enough to consistently get around would-be blockers for the tackle.
Don't get me wrong, agility is intensely valuable if you do a lot of cutting, blocking, excessive start/stop dynamics, etc
But for a strong safety, it's not so. Of course it depends on how you're used. My SS is primarily run defense, using zones close to the line, or covering the strong side from short passes.
$.02

This is his build, since I'm not the least bit shy:

Level 43, CE in Hard Hitter

Attributes
Speed: 108.26 (+29)
Vision: 68.26
Tackling: 63.26 (next to be third-capped)
Strength: 65.26 (+3) (AEQ = +5 speed, +3 strength, Make tackle chance +15%, due for upgrade soon)
Agility: 62.58
Stamina: 36.26
Confidence: 34.58
Jumping: 27.58
Catching: 24.58


Last year his stat line consisted of 122 tackles (trophy for 2nd place) with only 1 missed tackle, 15 pass deflections, 1 interception, and 17 forced fumbles (trophy for first.)
Granted it was in 38 capped, but there were many contenders.



lol@atagilityisoverrated

WRs with over 100 speed and less than 70 agility will reach their top speed, saying otherwise is completely unevidenced.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=898161&pbp_id=18905259

This is my SS with 2 less speed and 1 less agility reaching 43.73 top speed and 16.23 max acceleration. His average maximum acceleration rests somewhere around 7.5. This is with 60 agility.
Granted, he is not great at cutting, but as I've said before I don't believe cutting well is an attribute an SS needs.

The idea is, if you have higher speed, you make the tackle faster. Saying you don't need over 100 speed is irrelevant.

And saying a high speed SS isn't a team oriented build you're honestly fooling yourself. Getting to a runner as promptly as possible is the entire team's goal as soon as the runner is handed the ball. This constitutes well over half of the plays you will face as a defensive player. If you think having less ability to accomplish this somehow makes you better for your team, good luck, I have nothing else to say to you.

Originally posted by Djinnt
WRs with over 100 speed and less than 70 agility will reach their top speed, saying otherwise is completely unevidenced.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=898161&pbp_id=18905259

This is my SS with 2 less speed and 1 less agility reaching 43.73 top speed and 16.23 max acceleration. His average maximum acceleration rests somewhere around 7.5. This is with 60 agility.
Granted, he is not great at cutting, but as I've said before I don't believe cutting well is an attribute an SS needs.

The idea is, if you have higher speed, you make the tackle faster. Saying you don't need over 100 speed is irrelevant.

And saying a high speed SS isn't a team oriented build you're honestly fooling yourself. Getting to a runner as promptly as possible is the entire team's goal as soon as the runner is handed the ball. This constitutes well over half of the plays you will face as a defensive player. If you think having less ability to accomplish this somehow makes you better for your team, good luck, I have nothing else to say to you.

wow, nice play, if you don't mind what are your players stats, I still have an SS at lvl 17 and I'm trying to build an effective one, more then likely for zone coverage, not too interested in the hard hitter.

You should show us a link to a passing play to prove your point and not a punt coverage play.

I can show a 100 examples of my safety picking up the returner just as fast. However, if you look at the play you showed closely; The LB Albino Rhino, your SS ran over before he went unimpeded to the PR, shows your SS used strength to run over a guy and stay running in a straight line.

If that LB would of had more strength when trying to block your safety; then your SS would of had to go around him using the agility we have been discussing here.

So the question still remains; would your SS loose a whole hell of alot of speed if he would of went around that LB instead of over him? I believe the answer is yes, and most likely it would of been someone else making that tackle and not your SS.

you might want to go further back in the play archives and find some passing plays to support your arguement. Since it's CB's with or without 110 speed in coverage that we have been discussing.

Just an idea.