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Forum > Position Talk > WR Club > Quandary: Bruiser for WR?
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fivearmshiver
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Since I wrote the most, you should have listened to me imo.


I definitely will next time. I've got another guy who's desperately trying to get his strength to 50 and
he will become a Bruiser instead of just bruised from those evil CB's and FS's.
 
Djinnt
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Originally posted by Strokke
Depends on build, IMO.

I'm going to agree that for almost everybody, Bruiser>Slippery. Not only does it do everything you talked about but it also gets your momentum moving forward much quicker than slippery. More momentum=more broken tackles, which may actually be more valuable than the 15% difference.

Extreme builds would benefit from slippery though if they have no problem breaking first tackles with just YAC.


Bruiser isn't better than slippery.
Slippery isn't better than bruiser.
You have to build appropriately to make either work.
 
Strokke
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Originally posted by Djinnt
Bruiser isn't better than slippery.
Slippery isn't better than bruiser.
You have to build appropriately to make either work.


I think if Bruiser is better than slippery for 95% of possession WRs...then bruiser is better than slippery.
 
Djinnt
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Originally posted by Strokke
if Bruiser is better than slippery for 95% of possession WRs


Protip: It isn't.
 
Strokke
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Originally posted by Djinnt
Protip: It isn't.


Thanks for the worthless post. Either back it up with some substance or stop wasting everybody's time.
 
Djinnt
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The burden of proof is on the accuser.
Look at your post that I quoted; where is the substance?
The tense of high and mighty doesn't sit well with hypocrites.

I've personally used both bruiser and slippery to much success. Both of them break tackles in different ways, and I find both to be very useful.

This combo back is level 37 (http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=919092&playoffs=0) his build is always open.
As you can see, he has 10 in slippery.
The three seasons before that he had 1-10 in Bruiser (as soon as it was available.)

These are broken tackles from this season (with slippery) without including blowouts my team won.
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=816726&pbp_id=3554754
41 DT

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=816727&pbp_id=6939436
62 LB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803042&pbp_id=1841650
60 FS

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803040&pbp_id=251744
45 CB and 65 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803040&pbp_id=252825
45 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803040&pbp_id=253333
65 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803040&pbp_id=253958
45 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803040&pbp_id=254056
45 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803040&pbp_id=254130
45 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=816726&pbp_id=3556723
45 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=816727&pbp_id=6934369
66 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=816727&pbp_id=6935280
60 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=816727&pbp_id=6942711
60 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=816727&pbp_id=6943947
60 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803041&pbp_id=1051460
42 LB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803041&pbp_id=1057777
48 CB

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=803041&pbp_id=1060122
44 LB
Edited by Djinnt on Oct 26, 2009 19:20:38
 
veepee
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You know what makes a lot of sense? Responding to an assertion that "bruiser is better than slippery for 95% of WRs" with an obnoxious "protip" and then, when called on it, trying to prove your assertion with evidence about how your *HALFBACK* breaks tackles with slippery.

I happen to disagree with Strokke (for the simple reason that bruiser seems to work best when coupled with power-back abilities, whereas slippery + high agil + elusive SAs + quick feet is a much more achievable goal for most WR builds). However, your attempt to bolster your idiotic comment with "evidence" is pure, unadulturated fail, and simply makes plain that you either: (a) don't understand the debate, but feel the need to open your mouth in virtually every thread nevertheless; or (b) you do understand the question, but are intentionally trying to mislead new players who - quite legitimately - may not understand why HBs breaking tackles in the open field (or after a 2-4 yard acceleration into the line of scrimmage) is different than a WR breaking tackles at the point of contact after a catch in which momentum is substantially slowed.

All of this said, I'd be thrilled to see some empirical evidence *about a WR* on the comparative effectiveness of bruiser/slippery. I get the argument that you give up 1/3 of the break tackle bonus by going the slippery route, but I do wonder just how high you'd need your strength/carrying to be before you are modifying a reasonably good base chance absent any of the traditional tackle-breaking SAs (power through, lower the shoulder, stiff arm, etc...)

Edited by veepee on Oct 27, 2009 09:27:53
 
Djinnt
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Cool story bro. Still mad about the other thread?

I don't see how it makes any more sense to you to reply with, "bruiser is better than slippery for 95% of possession WRs" (without any empirical evidence) to my statement that neither is better than my reply to that statement. You're simply playing sides because you're an easily bothered person who holds grudges in dotball forums.


Furthermore, you have a very slim chance of breaking a tackle as a WR in the first place. If you do it, it will likely be through the YAC attack SA, and once that's accomplished slippery and bruiser are both just as viable - a HB with full momentum is no different than a WR with full momentum - and since HBs typically carry far more frequently than WRs it would be stupid to exclude them from a study on tackle breaking.
Edited by Djinnt on Oct 27, 2009 12:31:52
Edited by Djinnt on Oct 27, 2009 12:28:35
 
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Well, veepee does have a point. A run play will differ from a receiving play due to slowed momentum.

With that being said, I don't believe one can be better then the other without the right builds. And YAC attack is important for either one. The slippery build seems easier to fit into for most WR builds, however, if made right, I think bruiser is harder to defend against. Most cornerbacks are built to expect speed and agility, but having power instead can really plow them over.
Edited by DeAngelo Williams on Oct 27, 2009 12:40:47
Edited by DeAngelo Williams on Oct 27, 2009 12:40:21
Edited by DeAngelo Williams on Oct 27, 2009 12:39:31
 
veepee
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Mad? About what? To paraphrase loosely someone much more entertaining than I, any "elite WR forum" which counts you as a member is a club to which I have zero desire to belong, especially if the discussion there even remotely resembles the little nuggets of "wisdom" you deign to share with us. Hardly mad, or sad, or irritated, or anything of the like.

On the other hand, I do appreciate helpful, germane discussion of either theory or empirical results. You, though, seem to provide little other than snide remarks and condescending (and apparently completely unsupported) "protips," apparently all garnered from the voluminous experience you've had with what appears to be a single, thoroughly mediocre level 37 WR. Who knows, maybe you're just an alt for the big-hitter. I'll gladly give you the benefit of the doubt on this one -- feel free to explain how some random replays from your HB sheds any light on the relative balance between bruiser/slippery for WRs.
 
veepee
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Huh? I never said "bruiser is better than slippery." In fact, if you take a quick gander at the forum, you'll see that I actually hold the opposite view, but that I am *looking* for empirical evidence either way. My response to you was simply to say that your douchey "protip" wasn't at all supported by what your HB happens to do.

I quite agree, DW -- what I (and others, if you look at the actual question being posed by the OP) am curious about is at what point bruiser becomes more effective than slippery, if ever. Guys like djinn jumping into a thread with a "nuh uh, you're wrong and stupid for thinking that" comment, and then suggesting that there's a "burden of proof" in a forum designed to help new players/discuss WR topics is the height of wasting all of our time, as Stokke suggested. Have some evidence to support a point of view? Great, let's hear it or point us to the relevant discussion elsewhere.
Edited by veepee on Oct 27, 2009 12:49:56
Edited by veepee on Oct 27, 2009 12:45:26
 
Djinnt
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1. My current WR is the third one I've made, and I'd bet money it's built more efficiently than your 53. Honestly, open and we'll compare, I'll laugh, we'll move on.
2. Your reading comprehension is shit apparently. Either that or you intentionally read the first half of my previous post and not the second, otherwise you wouldn't be asking how a back is anything like a receiver. If that wasn't a 'sufficient' answer, that's a different story, but I already covered this.
3. For the second time, I've used both bruiser and slippery. Without YAC Attack a tackle breaking receiver isn't worthwhile. If you want to debate whether or not any additional VA is going to help the given build or not, that would be infinitely more productive.
4. You're working under some assumption that you know me. You don't.
5. Nobody has lent anything to this discussion, on either side, more than "bruiser isn't as good," "slippery isn't as good," except possibly Wiseivan (he's a member too btw) and even that for the most part was conjecture. I fail to see why I would be a target out of all the posts you could have chosen for your (though you'll swear otherwise) heated rants.
 
Djinnt
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Originally posted by veepee
Guys like djinn jumping into a thread with a "nuh uh, you're wrong and stupid for thinking that" comment


I don't see how I did that ^
Honestly, if me saying "protip" angers you so much I'll go back and edit it out. FFS, it's a pretty typical internet saying.
 
veepee
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You seem to be missing the entire point of this conversation, or, at least, the latter half of the thread. The issue isn't whether bruiser or slippery work in the open field (they both do), but rather which most benefits WRs at the critical point that they catch the ball and are immediately faced with a tackler (YAC attack is taken as a given here) in the absence of built-up momentum. That's why your HB footage reel is irrelevant.

Wiseivan raised the crux of this issue directly -- since many WRs are most often concerned with breaking tackles immediately after the catch, the key question is whether bruiser or slippery is best suited for that task when coupled with YAC attack, and he suggests that bruiser is more effective because it's a 3% bonus/level rather than a 2% bonus. I am sympathetic to the numbers, but wonder how high strength/carrying need to be before that break-tackle bonus is modifying a reasonable base chance of breaking the tackle, and whether the absence of stiff arm, or power through, or lower the shoulder neutralize the benefits conferred by the extra 1%/vp.

I don't really give a crap whether you think my WR is built efficiently. It's built for a particular purpose, and it serves that purpose rather well. Clearly, it's not perfect or I wouldn't be here having these discussions.

I don't need to "know you" to suggest that your comments are inane and generally unhelpful. Telling me that lots of people on the internet are also inane and unhelpful (i.e., that certain phrases intended to belittle are "pretty typical internet sayings") doesn't change that fact. Don't take it personally though, I can't imagine that anything that I (or others) say will change how you feel
Edited by veepee on Oct 27, 2009 13:22:28
 
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Note: It's assumed and estimated that Cassius Clay (lvl 70) from the Cobra Kai is a 80agl/70str/70car bruiser, with high spin. And he's had some great games playing in the pros, and even by some, is thought of as the best WR in the game today.
Edited by DeAngelo Williams on Oct 27, 2009 14:47:59
 
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