Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Granted86
Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks


If you want 75 I think allocating equipment to get 75 is a better option than spending an entire 15 va points on it.

wrong ...

Ball Hawk, Long Reach, Third Down Stopper > Football Genius

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks
Originally posted by Granted86

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks



If you want 75 I think allocating equipment to get 75 is a better option than spending an entire 15 va points on it.

wrong ...

Ball Hawk, Long Reach, Third Down Stopper > Football Genius

Wrong.

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks
Originally posted by Granted86

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks



If you want 75 I think allocating equipment to get 75 is a better option than spending an entire 15 va points on it.

wrong ...

Ball Hawk, Long Reach, Third Down Stopper > Football Genius

Right.

Agreeing with yourself?

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks
Originally posted by Granted86

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks



If you want 75 I think allocating equipment to get 75 is a better option than spending an entire 15 va points on it.

wrong ...

Ball Hawk, Long Reach, Third Down Stopper > Football Genius

Please do not give BAD advice

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks
Originally posted by Granted86

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks



If you want 75 I think allocating equipment to get 75 is a better option than spending an entire 15 va points on it.

wrong ...

Ball Hawk, Long Reach, Third Down Stopper > Football Genius

This guy is spot on. Good head on his shoulders.




Which VA is it that you don't like out of those three anyway?
I see all of them as 100% essential for pretty much any corner.
I'd go into Football Genius after that simply because there's almost nothing else for a shutdown CB.
PS: Quit taking shit so seriously. All you're doing is spreading your opinions, no need to look like advice nazis while you do it.

Out of those three long reach. I'd take ball hawk over football genius if you already have high vision and SV, but after that, football genius is more beneficial than long reach or TDS.

So basically you think vision is the end all be all of CB success?

Not the end-all-be-all, but it's a good place to start. CBs need to be well-rounded, and vision is part of that. Vision is really important for all defensive positions, though. You'll find that your cb gets faked less, reads plays better, and hits his rolls more often with high vision. Long reach only gives you a chance to re-roll a roll you've already missed and TDS only gives you an added bonus to your base chance to deflect passes. Let's look at it this way:

Football genius:
Assuming you have 70 base vision, it adds about 5-6 vision when maxed.
Fall for fakes less.
Read plays (make jumps on the ball, etc.) better
Hit your rolls more often
Works on every play (run play, pass play, pass to other wr/te/fb/hb, special teams)

Long Reach:
Chance to re-roll a missed pd roll, max of 45%
Only works on plays where you've missed a pd
Isn't guaranteed to give a second roll
Second roll isn't guaranteed to hit (if you missed it the first time and your cb is built well, it is likely a low chance anyways)

Third down stopper:
+45% to your base pd chance (which is already affected by vision)
Only on third and fourth downs
Only when you're being passed on

You may only get about 6 more vision, but that 6 more vision affects essentially every aspect of your cbs play.

/sets foot into conversation

For most CBs, I'd recommend
1. Ball Hawk (not really much argument from anyone on this)
2. 3rd Down Stopper (maxed: 45% bonus to deflecting passes)
3. Long Reach (maxed: 45% chance to retry deflecting a pass)
4. Football Genius (maxed: 5 points bonus if your vision is at the 68-cap)
5. Jackhammer (underpowered, imo, but if Bort nerfs knocked loose passes, it might be all CBs can do to keep forcing them)
6. Zone Sp (but only if you're sure you're going to be in Zone year in and year out. If so, this jumps up to #2, imo).
7. Clutch (only this low because I'm too scared of how vague it is)

As someone else in this thread has said, I'd rather spend an EQ upgrade on vision rather than 15 VA's.

edit: nice breakdown, longhorn.
When I was figuring out which VA to reset so I could max Jackhammer, those were my lines of thinking about LR, so I ended up dropping that.

I understand what you're saying but you're adding your own bias into the descriptions as anyone would (including me). I see it like this:

Football Genius:
Adds very marginally to an already high stat if you made your player right.
Fall for fakes less, but if 5 vision makes the difference you should have just raised it one more cap to begin with because I'd rather not be right on the border of getting faked all the time.
Same goes for reading plays. If you actually think you'll benefit that much more from 75 vision than 70 vision in reading plays in a make or break way, take vision to 73 and let it auto level to 75 or throw some equipment in it.
Works on every play.


Long Reach:
Chance to re-roll a missed pd roll, max of 45%
On the rare occasion that you miss a PD but were in range (not really that rare even for good builds) you get a reroll sometimes.
Only works on plays that matter, because PDs are the only important stat for a CB imo.
Your PD reroll isn't guaranteed to work, but since you had a second try the chances of success overall are definitely far greater.


Third Down Stopper:
+45% to your base pd chance
Works congruently with Long Reach, making the "your reroll might not be a PD" argument worth less
Only matters when you're being passed on, or in other words when it matters.
Only in third and fourth downs. Even if you throw out that it includes fourth downs, it includes 33% of downs, and arguably the most important one for you to have bonuses (look at VAs like clutch)





I don't dispute the value of high vision, I just have a concept of value assessment.
If the idea is, "higher vision will always help" then just raise vision higher initially. Maybe 68 base isn't enough. If you need that extra 5 or 6, why not just get it right away?
You can get that vision without having to use VAs.
The bonuses offered in Long Reach and Third Down Stopper you won't get anywhere else (except AEQ in the case of 3rd down stopper, which imo CBs can't afford to sacrifice for % based stats because they need assistance with SAs.)


Edit: Nothing said in this post would require you to have a level 50+ Pro player to know, it's based on logic, not experience.
Experience is a cheap way to prove your point, because even if you see success that success is based upon many factors and there's hardly any way of determining which factor lent to which facet of success.

Worst case scenario, your experience confuses you into believing you're right when it's clearly not the case. For instance, someone was arguing that Bruiser doesn't work in any way shape or form in the HB forum because he took it for his powerback in an offseason and over the course of the next season saw no startling increase to his amount of broken tackles. This is obviously inconclusive for many reasons (he changed teams, leagues, his build was altered, different scheme, different O line, different opponents, etc etc etc) but his experience lead him to believe otherwise. This game doesn't reveal to you what is actually helping you or isn't. The only real gauge we have available is speculation and anyone has the ability to use it.

To bring your vision from 70 to 75 costs 22 sps. Or you can use 15 VPs. Those 22 sps being spent elsewhere on SAs or other PAs are more valuable than the benefits that LD or TDS can offer. For a good cb, neither do a whole lot. If you want a good example, go with Yes Man. He has football genius capped and 0 in long reach. So far this season he hasn't given up a single TD in USAPL regular season games or PWT or Hazy's Tournament games. I didn't go so far back as to check pre-season games because I hadn't boosted yet, but I don't think he gave up any TDs there either. If you build your cb well enough in the first place, long reach and third down stopper become almost negligible in his play, and both aren't as valuable as 5 more vision.

Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
For a good cb, neither do a whole lot. If you want a good example, go with Yes Man. He has football genius capped and 0 in long reach. So far this season he hasn't given up a single TD in USAPL regular season games or PWT or Hazy's Tournament games. If you build your cb well enough in the first place, long reach and third down stopper become almost negligible in his play, and both aren't as valuable as 5 more vision.

You're saying that based on one skewed sample. Change your VAs from Football Genius to Long Reach, play the same teams, with all players on them and all players on your own being the same level as in the initial game, make sure neither team or individual player changes their tactics, and you'll see valuable data. What you've submitted is speculation and you're trying to pass it off as reliable. That's fine, but if you're going to do that don't question people's credibility any more than you would your own.

I forgot to mention that he had 0 in football genius and 15 in long reach last season while on the same team and in the same league, when it was actually tougher. He did pretty damn well last season, but not as well as this season.

Do you at least get my point?