Warrior General Games

Originally posted by the hurricane
WOWZERS 75 natural for both? I see your stick and raise you 20. Congrats on building a completely average DT.

Like you even know, lol

Anyway, focus and keep up with the current discussion. You're trying to turn an argument about sufficiency to one about superiority. That's a red herring. Never claimed my guy was King WOWZERS . . . This is about what is enough tackling, strength, and agility for a DT to be sufficient. Who the heck would argue 75 strength isn't sufficient for a DT?"Can't poke a stick" means "does not suck." Go any where else with that and you're just fishing.

That said, 95/95 natural strength/ agility that you're shooting for (raise me "20") will definitely be an, um, unique use of SPs.

Originally posted by FatNasty


Like you even know, lol

Anyway, focus and keep up with the current discussion. You're trying to turn an argument about sufficiency to one about superiority. That's a red herring. Never claimed my guy was King WOWZERS . . . This is about what is enough tackling, strength, and agility for a DT to be sufficient. Who the heck would argue 75 strength isn't sufficient for a DT?"Can't poke a stick" means "does not suck." Go any where else with that and you're just fishing.

That said, 95/95 natural strength/ agility that you're shooting for (raise me "20") will definitely be an, um, unique use of SPs.

I know a lot of things.

I know that I have a DT 3 levels higher than yours (so my majors are inflated by 1.5 points) and even compensating for this your STR/AGI aren't even in the same ballpark as mine. I know that 75 strength is mediocre for your level (as is 75 agility) and will not be sufficient against good competition. I'm 99% sure even the vanilla build strategy of taking 1 primary to 68 ASAP would have netted you higher than 75 in one of the two. I know that your tackling will be unnecessarily high later on in your players career (It's not that good, TPat gets by with 48 on his season 1 DT and I'm pretty sure Maz doesn't have his much higher). I know what "can't poke a stick" means.

I am not trying to portray myself as some awesome guru of all that is DTs, and I think people should be free to build their players however they want, but don't come in here acting like your guy is amazing when he's not. Your guy will be great at forcing fumbles, especially if you complement that with the right SAs/VAs. But it came at expense of skills that were more important. I think you could have taken STR/AGI/SPD higher, and then taken TKL to 68 after everything else was done, and ended up with a much more effective player.

Lastly, I'm assuming you were being sarcastic at the end, because I agree 95/95 would be silliness. It's not too unreasonable to take the naturals as high as 80 however.

Originally posted by the hurricane
I know that I have a DT 3 levels higher than yours (so my majors are inflated by 1.5 points) and even compensating for this your STR/AGI aren't even in the same ballpark as mine. .

Um . . . You're f-i-s-h-i-n-g. STAY ON TOPIC. Goodness I could care less if your DT is or isn't better than mine. You are so far off track with your focus in this thread it's sad. You must have GLB penis envy! Settle down.



Originally posted by the hurricane
I know that 75 strength is mediocre for your level (as is 75 agility) and will not be sufficient against good competition.

You're putting a higher cap on strength? And here I thought I was bucking the trend by getting a pass rushers past first strength cap. More power to ya, bud.



Originally posted by the hurricane
I know [75 agility] and will not be sufficient against good competition.

Are you deaf? Like I said, IT'S GOING TO 78! In fact, was able to pump it with SPs this morning (currently at 76.95) and with a mere 14 more XP he'll be there with the natural level gain. And since Agility was the last of the three to be capped, I've not lost a single natural gain. How 'bout them apples? Heck, I'll probably take it lots higher.



Originally posted by the hurricane
I'm 99% sure even the vanilla build strategy of taking 1 primary to 68 ASAP would have netted you higher than 75 in one of the two.

That 1% is a killer! LMAO!!! F-I-S-H-I-N-G!



Originally posted by the hurricane
I know that your tackling will be unnecessarily high later on in your players career (It's not that good, TPat gets by with 48 on his season 1 DT and I'm pretty sure Maz doesn't have his much higher). I know what "can't poke a stick" means.

I've covered this. See previous posts. Fishing, fishing, fishing . . .



Originally posted by the hurricane
Lastly, I'm assuming you were being sarcastic at the end, because I agree 95/95 would be silliness. It's not too unreasonable to take the naturals as high as 80 however.

So I'll bite. 81, huh? All with SPs? Like I said, I do like higher strength. Might work great. You do know you can get there with level gains instead, right? I do have to say I find it curious that you're being so cocky over such a small difference in end build caps, because let's face it, we're only talking a couple of caps difference between Str/Agi combined. The real difference is training order. But whatever. You have demonstrated your DT should be wearing the King Wowzers crown. I bow.



Originally posted by
I know a lot of things.

I'm sure you do, but you certainly didn't demonstrate it with this post.

Since your reading comprehension is clearly lacking, I'll spell it out for you:

Spending so many points in tackling (especially so early) was a colossal waste of SP.

1) You lost out on natural level gains (which are functionally just free SP) in important skills like Str and Agi by not giving them enough focus early on. Your Majors aren't even where they would be if you had used the simplistic build strategy of taking one skill to 68 and then moving on to the other, which is bad because this strategy is the bare minimum that everybody is doing. I don't remember precisely where your first skill would be if you hadn't fucked up, hence my hesitance to state definitively that it was off. Adding more points to those skills now will improve your attributes but it will not earn you back the SPs you already lost by building poorly. Everybody will get over 80 eventually with the level gains, when I said it was in the realm of reason to get the naturals up to 80 I meant quickly and using SPs. That way you have a permanent lead in the skill over people who didn't build this way since level gains are the same across the board.

2) You wasted SP by taking a mediocre skill much higher than it ever needs to be. The added level gains from this are moot, since you are already in the realm of unnecessarily high. Maybe you will luck out if the sim changes to make tackling even more important, but for right now it was not worth the investment.

In conclusion, great... you got a dark green tackling bar earlier than most, but that isn't something to be proud of, and you certainly shouldn't argue that it was a good decision.

Originally posted by the hurricane
Since your reading comprehension is clearly lacking, I'll spell it out for you:

Spending so many points in tackling (especially so early) was a colossal waste of SP. You lost out on natural level gains (which are functionally just free SP) in important skills like Str and Agi by not giving them enough focus early on.

So you keep saying. The problem you're having is you're trying to see my build through the eyes of the "simplistic build strategy." Square peg, round hole. More on that in a second...

You keep claiming I did not focus my SPs on strength getting it to cap before moving on. Wrong! Sorry, but since your premise is false, your whole argument is invalid. Do you really think stating something not true over and over will somehow make it true? What evidence do you have to support your claim? Oh, here it is:

Originally posted by the hurricane
Your Majors aren't even where they would be if you had used the simplistic build strategy of taking one skill to 68 and then moving on to the other, which is bad because this strategy is the bare minimum that everybody is doing. I don't remember precisely where your first skill would be if you hadn't fucked up, hence my hesitance to state definitively that it was off.

Show me anywhere where I said I took strength to 68? For that matter, show me where I stated I brought any skill with SPs? Let me save you the mileage, I never did! You're making a false presumption here, and you are because you can't see far past the "simplistic build strategy." I guess to someone so narrowly focused as yourself it would look like I "'F'-ed up" my build.

As for "everybody's doing it." Holy Toledo, is this junior high? And no, not even the majority of rush DTs are doing that. And explain to me how my level 30 player's strength (75) and agility (78) are not going to 80 with natural gains? Can anybody believe the audacity of this guy?


Originally posted by the hurricane
You wasted SP by taking a mediocre skill much higher than it ever needs to be. The added level gains from this are moot, since you are already in the realm of unnecessarily high. Maybe you will luck out if the sim changes to make tackling even more important, but for right now it was not worth the investment.

You think not waiting until the last to put points into tackling is a waste. News Flash! Japan Bombs Pearl Harbor! If you don't think I was conscious of the fact that many people think this when I chose to do it, I once again invite you to go back and read my earlier posts. I keep inviting you too, but you just refuse to acknowledge I covered it already. *sigh*

Fact is, my training order was thus: 1) Train strength/tackling (strength was high roll by design); 2) Cap strength ASAP; 3a) train tackling/agility; 3b) Pump strength until finished; 4) Cap tackling (being closest to cap this is just good sense since overall build will see higher level gains earlier, meaning more of those "Bort's free points" in the overall end build); 5a) Train speed/agility; 5b) pump tackling until finished (I might have let natural gains get it to second cap, I just don't recall); Pump agility to 6 cap and perhaps beyond.

Tackling will probably matter, but might not, sure. I never made a claim beyond this. Further, I'm convinced my build will have more points than yours by decline. I only go here, which is way off topic for this thread, because you did.

1) get strength or agility to 68+
2) get the other one to 68+

Starting out any other way is a bad idea. Try and misinterpret THAT.

i like the emfasis on the end

Okay, so it's a bad idea to you. So what? Really, I don't care. The OP asked about green bars. I responded. Wasn't crowing. Wasn't looking for a critique. But you come along and try to get in a pissing match, refuse to use reason and talk substance. Your target build numbers keep changing. First 80 with SPs, now 68... Man! Pick one and go with it already! You're not helping your cause at all! You just have to be right all the time I bet. Even if it means bending the truth. It's all here for the record. Anyone can go back and verify what I'm talking about. You accuse me of "acting like your guy is amazing" when I clearly didn't. That says more about you than it does me. Pretty transparent. But I'll let you "win", if that's what stroking your ego requires. I will now let you have the final word, because your posts are a yawn fest and you bore me. Maybe you ought to change your name to Raging Bully. LOL

Originally posted by FatNasty
Your target build numbers keep changing. First 80, now 68... Man! Pick one and go with it already!

earlier, he spoke about 80 for a final value post-level gains. the 68 is for initial stopping points prior to level gains. Just sayin

Originally posted by zomgmike
Originally posted by FatNasty

Your target build numbers keep changing. First 80, now 68... Man! Pick one and go with it already!

earlier, he spoke about 80 for a final value post-level gains. the 68 is for initial stopping points prior to level gains. Just sayin
His argument was my 80 by way of natural level gains will be behind his 80 with SPs........

Originally posted by FatNasty
So I'll bite. 81, huh? All with SPs? Like I said, I do like higher strength. Might work great. You do know you can get there with level gains instead, right?

Originally posted by the hurricane
Everybody will get over 80 eventually with the level gains, when I said it was in the realm of reason to get the naturals up to 80 I meant quickly and using SPs.

See what I mean? This guy is a real piece of work.

he may not have worded it correctly there, but he referred to quickly getting attributes up to the 68 or 73 caps. While doing so quickly, you can let natural level gains take over. With such gains, you will be at 80 natural quicker, with less use of SPs. At least thats what i think im reading.

Gotcha. That would be one valid way to build. But again, he makes it sound as though it's common for rush DTs to have high strength. It isn't. I wonder if he's confusing DT with NT? He is an NT after all. I probably have at least 2-3 caps higher strength than 90% of the rush DTs out there. This is just not as common as he makes it sound. The emphasis to date with those have been high speed and agility. Another valid build strategy would be to get the other highly trained partner, tackling, to cap and enjoying those natural gains, esp. if you think tackling will be necessary as I do. A primary, tackling was a natural partner. What else is there, really? Punting? With only three primaries, DT enjoys enormous level gains for those skills when capped. By the time I was done training tackling/agility, it took very few SPs to get to 48. I debated, but decided it would probably be worth it. Agility had to wait maybe eight SPs. Big deal. Really. The difference remains, I waited to train speed, most do not. The whole chimichanga.

my pass rush DT at level 17 has 76.71 natural agi, 49.71 str, and 34.71 tackling. I am so tempted to stray from SP dumping into strength decently high and go ahead and cap tackling. Sort of stumped which way i will go

Yeah, I hear ya. I'm gambling on tackling. You hear some speculation about it becoming more important in the future, but you never know. I still love strength. The way you trained I'd probably just stay the course and finish pumping strength to where you want it, imo. How high? I know some builders won't even touch strength till after agility speed vision. That would be low strength in other words. I'm gambling there as well.

thats another problem as well. I want to probably bring str to 68 so i wont ever have to touch it, then tackling to 48, then speed to 68, possibly another tackling cap during the speed. But again, this is all my plan now. and any slight change in the sim could alter that plan