Warrior General Games

Originally posted by iMan
Originally posted by direfire

Originally posted by park avenue


Originally posted by direfire



The SA's imo are placed in the tree in the order of how good they are so imo high agi + high CD > high spd + high FS.

Thoughts?

I would have to disagree with this.

Is big sack > tunnel vision

Using a QB is turn shoulder > tight spiral

Using a CB is Smooth Operator > Super Vision



I haven't really checked out the other positions but for DE yes Big Sack>Tunnel Vision. You aren't going to get a whole lot of big sacks if you don't have high Tunnel Vision. I do believe that if you can get to the QB consistently then I would rather pump up Big Sack then TV.

!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?

TV >>>>>>>>>>>>> Big sack
its not even close there is a huge gap between TV and big sack
with the current state of DE pass rushing, its highly unlikely you will get a sack without TV

Unless you're getting 30+ sacks on a consistent basis there's really no reason to up Big Sack SA. Although Bort did significantly increase it's value that now when a Big Sack happens the QB is so "riddled" that the next couple of plays he'll function with significantly reduced capacity.

Originally posted by UnderDogs
Originally posted by Redrover

i think you'd save some points while still reaching your speed and agility by simply stopping at 73 agility, bring speed to 73 also, and using one equipment piece for all agility

78 agility + 68 speed + 1 speed piece is more points than 73 agility + 73 speed + 1 agility piece, no?

I would rather bring agility up to 78 and let it gain. That way it's at a natural 85-90 by level 40ish, and you don't really have to put any equipment in it and you can concentrate all your equipment in speed. Saving points now doesn't translate to a better build later. In the early stages of a d.e's career you pretty much want to ignore everything but speed and agility.

I'm sorry, but it is completely backwards to have all your equipment in your second highest stat. I under stand you want to take advantage of the "free" SPs, but why wouldn't you just cap speed first instead and get the bonus there. All that matters for efficiency is the total number of caps you have hit, you don't get anything more for having agility at the 6:1 cap while speed is still in 1:1, then you do for having agility at 5:1 with speed at 2:1.

At level 40 you have ~30 points of equipment (+anything extra from AEq) to assign. So if you goal is 100 speed and 85 agility by that point, ideally both should be at 78 to make the most efficient use of equipment. Which probably means taking the first to 73 and letting it coast up from there.

Originally posted by
If you're real ballsy you can actually take agility up higher, and be like 120 speed 100 agility at level 40 if you do it right.

this is impossible. Even with fully upgraded +3 AEqs that means you need 92/92 base speed agility. I have a DT with double 80s in strength/agilty and there is no way in hell I could have gotten him to 90s and its only harder for DEs since they get 25% fewer freebie points each level. Maybe if you super-slowbuild a guy for his entire 10 year career training speed/agility the entire time, but not for a player that is going to be relevant at any point.


Also, I don't want you to feel like I am out to get you or anything. I honestly only take the time to critique your posts because I know a lot of people here respect you and your ideas and if you are giving out flawed advice I feel the need to point that out, more so than if some nobody (like me) were to do the same.

I could believe 110/100 if the DE had no SAs and hadn't bothered to cap any other attribute...

Originally posted by merk
I could believe 110/100 if the DE had no SAs and hadn't bothered to cap any other attribute...

That might be possible, but another 10 points when they are that high is a ton of SPs.

That would require 87/87 which is still in the 9:1 cap, you're talking about finding another 100 SPs somewhere to get to 92/92

Originally posted by nottom
Originally posted by UnderDogs

Originally posted by Redrover


i think you'd save some points while still reaching your speed and agility by simply stopping at 73 agility, bring speed to 73 also, and using one equipment piece for all agility

78 agility + 68 speed + 1 speed piece is more points than 73 agility + 73 speed + 1 agility piece, no?

I would rather bring agility up to 78 and let it gain. That way it's at a natural 85-90 by level 40ish, and you don't really have to put any equipment in it and you can concentrate all your equipment in speed. Saving points now doesn't translate to a better build later. In the early stages of a d.e's career you pretty much want to ignore everything but speed and agility.

I'm sorry, but it is completely backwards to have all your equipment in your second highest stat. I under stand you want to take advantage of the "free" SPs, but why wouldn't you just cap speed first instead and get the bonus there. All that matters for efficiency is the total number of caps you have hit, you don't get anything more for having agility at the 6:1 cap while speed is still in 1:1, then you do for having agility at 5:1 with speed at 2:1.

At level 40 you have ~30 points of equipment (+anything extra from AEq) to assign. So if you goal is 100 speed and 85 agility by that point, ideally both should be at 78 to make the most efficient use of equipment. Which probably means taking the first to 73 and letting it coast up from there.

Originally posted by

If you're real ballsy you can actually take agility up higher, and be like 120 speed 100 agility at level 40 if you do it right.

this is impossible. Even with fully upgraded +3 AEqs that means you need 92/92 base speed agility. I have a DT with double 80s in strength/agilty and there is no way in hell I could have gotten him to 90s and its only harder for DEs since they get 25% fewer freebie points each level. Maybe if you super-slowbuild a guy for his entire 10 year career training speed/agility the entire time, but not for a player that is going to be relevant at any point.


Also, I don't want you to feel like I am out to get you or anything. I honestly only take the time to critique your posts because I know a lot of people here respect you and your ideas and if you are giving out flawed advice I feel the need to point that out, more so than if some nobody (like me) were to do the same.

hmm funny my D.T. has 90/70/90 str/speed/agility . and if I switched his equipment around he would probably have about 100 str and 80 agility. It's possible if I didn't get his speed up to 70 naturally, that he could have more str and agility. is it not?
oh and no one respects me here. they just tolerate me. I suck at this game.

Originally posted by UnderDogs


hmm funny my D.T. has 90/70/90 str/speed/agility . and if I switched his equipment around he would probably have about 100 str and 80 agility. It's possible if I didn't get his speed up to 70 naturally, that he could have more str and agility. is it not?
oh and no one respects me here. they just tolerate me. I suck at this game.

Mine has 85/62/81/62 Str/Spd/Agi/Tack Base @ 39

If I didn't double cap speed and tackling and instead put those point in strength/agility he could "Maybe" be 90/84 Str/Agility or something like and would would get me to like 120/84 which admittedly is pretty sick, but FAR way from 120/100 and this is with a DT who gets more points than a DE each level.

Originally posted by nottom
Originally posted by UnderDogs



hmm funny my D.T. has 90/70/90 str/speed/agility . and if I switched his equipment around he would probably have about 100 str and 80 agility. It's possible if I didn't get his speed up to 70 naturally, that he could have more str and agility. is it not?
oh and no one respects me here. they just tolerate me. I suck at this game.

Mine has 85/62/81/62 Str/Spd/Agi/Tack Base @ 39

If I didn't double cap speed and tackling and instead put those point in strength/agility he could "Maybe" be 90/84 Str/Agility or something like and would would get me to like 120/84 which admittedly is pretty sick, but FAR way from 120/100 and this is with a DT who gets more points than a DE each level.



85/62/81 is a hell of a lot less than 90/70/90 in terms of points spent.
Besides it was a hypothetical response, it wasn't meant to be taken literally. Of all the things you could talk about, you talk about that?

so you think 120/100 is impossible by level 40 that's fine.

Originally posted by UnderDogs
Originally posted by nottom

Originally posted by UnderDogs




hmm funny my D.T. has 90/70/90 str/speed/agility . and if I switched his equipment around he would probably have about 100 str and 80 agility. It's possible if I didn't get his speed up to 70 naturally, that he could have more str and agility. is it not?
oh and no one respects me here. they just tolerate me. I suck at this game.

Mine has 85/62/81/62 Str/Spd/Agi/Tack Base @ 39

If I didn't double cap speed and tackling and instead put those point in strength/agility he could "Maybe" be 90/84 Str/Agility or something like and would would get me to like 120/84 which admittedly is pretty sick, but FAR way from 120/100 and this is with a DT who gets more points than a DE each level.



85/62/81 is a hell of a lot less than 90/70/90 in terms of points spent.
Besides it was a hypothetical response, it wasn't meant to be taken literally. Of all the things you could talk about, you talk about that?

so you think 120/100 is impossible by level 40 that's fine.



BASE = without equipment. With equipment he's about 105/62/91

But you are right about one thing, the main point I wanted to make was that it makes no sense to assign all your equipment to an attribute 3 caps behind another one.

Basic math simplified version - not necessarily the most efficient method
Instead of taking agility to 78 you should take speed to 74 which saves you about 20 SPs (@ 5:1)to use to instead take Agility from 68 to 73 (@ 4:1)

This gives you an extra point or either speed or agility.

I agree with nottam . . . everything else about this guide is spot-on, but for the greatest SP efficiency you shouldn't take agility that high naturally. If you want a 15-point difference between speed and agility (as UnderDogs suggests), then take both to the 73 cap and use EQ manipulation to get to 100/85.

Other than that, I don't think I've ever seen a successful speed or agility based DE that wasn't a variation of this guide.

Originally posted by nottom

BASE = without equipment. With equipment he's about 105/62/91

But you are right about one thing, the main point I wanted to make was that it makes no sense to assign all your equipment to an attribute 3 caps behind another one.

Basic math simplified version - not necessarily the most efficient method
Instead of taking agility to 78 you should take speed to 74 which saves you about 20 SPs (@ 5:1)to use to instead take Agility from 68 to 73 (@ 4:1)

This gives you an extra point or either speed or agility.

OMGBANZORZ. I know what base means batman.

Also again it was a hypothetical retort. not meant to be taken literally. It was just random numbers and a close approximation to what you would have if you went to level 40 with out adding anything else but speed or agility. you understand?

Originally posted by SunshineMan89
I agree with nottam . . . everything else about this guide is spot-on, but for the greatest SP efficiency you shouldn't take agility that high naturally. If you want a 15-point difference between speed and agility (as UnderDogs suggests), then take both to the 73 cap and use EQ manipulation to get to 100/85.

Other than that, I don't think I've ever seen a successful speed or agility based DE that wasn't a variation of this guide.

No it makes perfect sense. The idea is to be a high agility and speed end rolled into one. getting agility to 78 first, will still leave you time to get speed to 68 by level 32, and even work on str to 49. You might be able to even squeeze out a few s.a's if you so desired. Then you never have to spend another point in agility, or put any equipment there. You should naturally gain to at least 90 between level 32-40. then have over 100 speed. Str should be good to go, and you can either work on s.a's, vision, confidence, or stamina by then.

Pretty good guide, tbh.

On a side note, I'm really starting to doubt Tunnel Vision. I have a piece of AEQ that I've been building up, that when equipped, brings my TV to a pretty decent amount, even though I end up losing a few of points in Speed. But every time I equip it, my DE really doesn't see any improvement in his production, in fact, he's actually seemed a bit worse.

Now maybe I'm not getting it high enough, as I've always heard great things. But I'm seeing much more production from First Step, than I am with TV, and it's not even close.

I'm even to the point where I'm seriously debating working on another one of the SAs next season, instead of TV - which was my original plan.

I might just keep upgrading it with the AEQ, and see where that takes me, while spending my SPs somewhere else.

Has anyone else seen anything like that with TV, lately?

Don't get me wrong, I know that it was once a great SA - maybe the best. But I'm starting to think that it could have been nerfed recently, so I wanted other input.

At what level did you guys really start to notice TV kicking in?

Originally posted by UnderDogs
Originally posted by SunshineMan89

I agree with nottam . . . everything else about this guide is spot-on, but for the greatest SP efficiency you shouldn't take agility that high naturally. If you want a 15-point difference between speed and agility (as UnderDogs suggests), then take both to the 73 cap and use EQ manipulation to get to 100/85.

Other than that, I don't think I've ever seen a successful speed or agility based DE that wasn't a variation of this guide.

No it makes perfect sense. The idea is to be a high agility and speed end rolled into one. getting agility to 78 first, will still leave you time to get speed to 68 by level 32, and even work on str to 49. You might be able to even squeeze out a few s.a's if you so desired. Then you never have to spend another point in agility, or put any equipment there. You should naturally gain to at least 90 between level 32-40. then have over 100 speed. Str should be good to go, and you can either work on s.a's, vision, confidence, or stamina by then.

what everyone is trying to say is... if Mr. Fantasy DE #2 simply stopped agility at 73, brought speed to 73, and placed one piece of equipment as agility, he would have the SAME EXACT stats as your hypothetical DE except with ~4 more skill points in his build. it's not a huge difference, but if you want to be nitpicky and optimize then that's what you'd do

Originally posted by Redrover
Originally posted by UnderDogs

Originally posted by SunshineMan89


I agree with nottam . . . everything else about this guide is spot-on, but for the greatest SP efficiency you shouldn't take agility that high naturally. If you want a 15-point difference between speed and agility (as UnderDogs suggests), then take both to the 73 cap and use EQ manipulation to get to 100/85.

Other than that, I don't think I've ever seen a successful speed or agility based DE that wasn't a variation of this guide.

No it makes perfect sense. The idea is to be a high agility and speed end rolled into one. getting agility to 78 first, will still leave you time to get speed to 68 by level 32, and even work on str to 49. You might be able to even squeeze out a few s.a's if you so desired. Then you never have to spend another point in agility, or put any equipment there. You should naturally gain to at least 90 between level 32-40. then have over 100 speed. Str should be good to go, and you can either work on s.a's, vision, confidence, or stamina by then.

what everyone is trying to say is... if Mr. Fantasy DE #2 simply stopped agility at 73, brought speed to 73, and placed one piece of equipment as agility, he would have the SAME EXACT stats as your hypothetical DE except with ~4 more skill points in his build. it's not a huge difference, but if you want to be nitpicky and optimize then that's what you'd do




He's stubborn

This isn't really an opinion, it's just basic math . . .

I agree with you on all your build philosophy, but as an above poster says by following a slightly modified version of your build plan you can achieve the exact same build and have several extra SP.