I think swat ball SA is really important to swat ball. As for catching I have no idea, havent worked on that in ages.
Viscount
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Originally posted by LostPeon
Originally posted by Viscount
If you're out of position how does jumping help you reach forward or around you when it only affects your vertical leap?
Catching is a major skill for CBs for a reason.
Jumping is a major skill for CBs for a reason.
I'm not disputing that, all I'm saying is that catching is better than jumping. Catching affects your general reach whereas jumping only affects your vertical reach.
Originally posted by Viscount
If you're out of position how does jumping help you reach forward or around you when it only affects your vertical leap?
Catching is a major skill for CBs for a reason.
Jumping is a major skill for CBs for a reason.
I'm not disputing that, all I'm saying is that catching is better than jumping. Catching affects your general reach whereas jumping only affects your vertical reach.
SPYFELLOW
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Originally posted by Viscount
If you're out of position how does jumping help you reach forward or around you when it only affects your vertical leap?
Catching is a major skill for CBs for a reason.
how do you know this? if can do a diving catch why cant you dive deflet/int and i know jumping helps diving tackles
If you're out of position how does jumping help you reach forward or around you when it only affects your vertical leap?
Catching is a major skill for CBs for a reason.
how do you know this? if can do a diving catch why cant you dive deflet/int and i know jumping helps diving tackles
I'm pretty sure mmuhr was referring to my slow-build cb when he mentioned strength being more important to a cb, so I'll go ahead and put my theory out here. We all agree that speed, agility, and vision are the three primary attributes for a cb. The question is: what should the fourth, fifth, and sixth attributes be and in what order? Jumping, strength, and catching seem to be the consensus, but the order is still being debated.
My philosophy is that you should raising jumping first, strength second, and catching third. My reasoning is based upon what we know the skills to do and what I'm pretty sure they do. Here is what we have (there is a b next to the one's Bort has confirmed):
Jumping
1) Increases vertical leap (b)
2) Increases horizontal leap (b)
3) Increases your leaping sphere (this just makes sense)
4) Increases your ability to make a jumping tackle
5) Increases ability to make a jumping pd/int (this is derived from 1 and 2, and I'm pretty sure Bort has confirmed it)
6) Not really something jumping does, but Bort has stated that this is one of the most underrated attributes. At that time most cbs had it around 35 and some had it capped, he has never said this about catching in regards to a cb
Strength
1) Helps you fight receiver for the ball
2) Helps break blocks (b)
3) Helps on tackles (b)
4) Helps stuff the wr at the line (I don't think this has been implemented yet, but should be by the time a newly built cb is ready to compete)
Catching
1) Increases your catching sphere (b)
2) Increases your chance to catch if in that sphere
Note: It has also been rumored that catching helps with pds, but it hasn't been confirmed. Viscount's argument is that because (1) a wr gets an anti-swat roll based on his catching, and (2) jump catch gives a bonus to catching while jumping that catching and not jumping affects pds. This doesn't follow. Per Bort, the way a cbs roll works is like this: first he makes an int check. If he fails to make the int check, he makes a pd check. If he makes the pd check, the wr gets the anti-swat roll. If you fails the pd check, the wr makes his catching check. If the wr makes his catching check, the cb gets another pd roll. If he fails that the wr makes the catch, if he succeeds, he gets the pd. There is nothing in there that supports the argument that catching helps with pds. Catching comes into play with the cbs pd check and the wrs catch check. We arent' sure about the cbs pds check.
Now to jumping catch. Bort has stated that the way catching works is that it increases your catching sphere. The higher your catching is, the larger the sphere, but the farther out the ball is in that sphere, the harder it is to catch. Now imagine that the center of that sphere is in the middle of your dot. The way jumping comes in to play is that it affects the position of your dot, and, therefore, the position of the center of the sphere. So for catches, they both come pretty heavily into play; jumping affects whether you are in position, and catching affects whether the ball is in your catching sphere. What we can't get from this is whether catching only increases your catching sphere or whether it increases your "reach sphere." If it does, then catching is definitely worth a lot of sps, but that's something we don't know right now. Both of my cbs have catching around 35, so I don't have any evidence whether or not this is true. If someone has a cb with really low catching, I would like to know how they are doing with pds. It will take about 3 or 4 seasons for my new cb (built with strength before catching) to really show any proof.
So why am I going with strength and jumping over catching? I want to build the best overall cb I can. With the way ints are in the game right now (rare), I want to build him to get pds. We don't know if catching affects pds; we don't know if it affects anything other than catching the ball. We do know that jumping helps a lot in pass defense and we do know that strength helps in a lot of areas of the game, including pass defense. So I am going with what I know will help my cb.
Edit: geez. That post took me so long to write that four more posts popped up. One thing: jumping affects horizontal and vertical, not just vertical. Diving tackles, pds, ints are all affected by your jumping.
My philosophy is that you should raising jumping first, strength second, and catching third. My reasoning is based upon what we know the skills to do and what I'm pretty sure they do. Here is what we have (there is a b next to the one's Bort has confirmed):
Jumping
1) Increases vertical leap (b)
2) Increases horizontal leap (b)
3) Increases your leaping sphere (this just makes sense)
4) Increases your ability to make a jumping tackle
5) Increases ability to make a jumping pd/int (this is derived from 1 and 2, and I'm pretty sure Bort has confirmed it)
6) Not really something jumping does, but Bort has stated that this is one of the most underrated attributes. At that time most cbs had it around 35 and some had it capped, he has never said this about catching in regards to a cb
Strength
1) Helps you fight receiver for the ball
2) Helps break blocks (b)
3) Helps on tackles (b)
4) Helps stuff the wr at the line (I don't think this has been implemented yet, but should be by the time a newly built cb is ready to compete)
Catching
1) Increases your catching sphere (b)
2) Increases your chance to catch if in that sphere
Note: It has also been rumored that catching helps with pds, but it hasn't been confirmed. Viscount's argument is that because (1) a wr gets an anti-swat roll based on his catching, and (2) jump catch gives a bonus to catching while jumping that catching and not jumping affects pds. This doesn't follow. Per Bort, the way a cbs roll works is like this: first he makes an int check. If he fails to make the int check, he makes a pd check. If he makes the pd check, the wr gets the anti-swat roll. If you fails the pd check, the wr makes his catching check. If the wr makes his catching check, the cb gets another pd roll. If he fails that the wr makes the catch, if he succeeds, he gets the pd. There is nothing in there that supports the argument that catching helps with pds. Catching comes into play with the cbs pd check and the wrs catch check. We arent' sure about the cbs pds check.
Now to jumping catch. Bort has stated that the way catching works is that it increases your catching sphere. The higher your catching is, the larger the sphere, but the farther out the ball is in that sphere, the harder it is to catch. Now imagine that the center of that sphere is in the middle of your dot. The way jumping comes in to play is that it affects the position of your dot, and, therefore, the position of the center of the sphere. So for catches, they both come pretty heavily into play; jumping affects whether you are in position, and catching affects whether the ball is in your catching sphere. What we can't get from this is whether catching only increases your catching sphere or whether it increases your "reach sphere." If it does, then catching is definitely worth a lot of sps, but that's something we don't know right now. Both of my cbs have catching around 35, so I don't have any evidence whether or not this is true. If someone has a cb with really low catching, I would like to know how they are doing with pds. It will take about 3 or 4 seasons for my new cb (built with strength before catching) to really show any proof.
So why am I going with strength and jumping over catching? I want to build the best overall cb I can. With the way ints are in the game right now (rare), I want to build him to get pds. We don't know if catching affects pds; we don't know if it affects anything other than catching the ball. We do know that jumping helps a lot in pass defense and we do know that strength helps in a lot of areas of the game, including pass defense. So I am going with what I know will help my cb.
Edit: geez. That post took me so long to write that four more posts popped up. One thing: jumping affects horizontal and vertical, not just vertical. Diving tackles, pds, ints are all affected by your jumping.
Last edited Mar 4, 2009 07:39:05
Viscount
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You do know that the CBs attributes and SAs also affect the WR's roll in a kind of anti-catch roll. Well when competing for a pass if both the CB and WR have enough jumping to reach the ball what's gonna affect who gets the ball? Catching in my opinion.
That's why I think Bort mentioned the Jumping Catch SA, because catching will have a greater effect on who gets the ball.
That's why I think Bort mentioned the Jumping Catch SA, because catching will have a greater effect on who gets the ball.
kostitsyn
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I've rolled a +1 jump catch +2 vision, guess I'll upgrade it even tho I dont really need vision all that mmuych at this point.
Viscount
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Originally posted by Bort
SA's like jumping catch give you a larger score when comparing rolls either against other players or just in general (like the "can I catch it" roll) in the various situations to which they apply.
SA's like jumping catch give you a larger score when comparing rolls either against other players or just in general (like the "can I catch it" roll) in the various situations to which they apply.
That's true for the wr, not necessarily the cb. It could be true, but doesn't necessarily follow. The cb isn't trying to catch the ball (after his int check), the wr is, so it makes sense that only the wr would need catching. Catching does have a greater effect on who can get the ball, it affects whether the wr catches the ball, we know that. What we don't know is whether it affects the cb's ability to knock the ball down. Have catching affect whether a cb knocks the ball to the ground seems counter-intuitive.
mmuhr
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yeah Im gonna go ahead and agree with longhorn fan. viscount makes great points, but they are just theory. Longhorn uses evidence from bort statements.
Also, Jumping is way more than just your vertical jump, like longhorn said its your jumping sphere. So essentially its like your catching sphere. Except it seems that if there is a high ball, a jumping sphere would help one get to it more than a catching sphere.
I like the point that your catching sphere is strong in the center, weak at the edges, and the jumping sphere helps center your catching sphere on the ball.
Also, Jumping is way more than just your vertical jump, like longhorn said its your jumping sphere. So essentially its like your catching sphere. Except it seems that if there is a high ball, a jumping sphere would help one get to it more than a catching sphere.
I like the point that your catching sphere is strong in the center, weak at the edges, and the jumping sphere helps center your catching sphere on the ball.
Viscount
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Well I'm just baseing this on what I've seen of some players I've spoken to with Pro League CBs with high catching and from what I've seen of my own CB with decent catching who has so far deflected or intercepted 82% of his passes, although admittedly he has had some easy games so far so I'm waiting to see how he performs over the entire season.
Also, if you watch the Test Server games you'll see a lot of defensive backs with 48+ catching and/or high Sticky Hands getting lots of PDs and a few INTs.
Also, if you watch the Test Server games you'll see a lot of defensive backs with 48+ catching and/or high Sticky Hands getting lots of PDs and a few INTs.
Last edited Mar 4, 2009 12:17:37
SPYFELLOW
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Originally posted by Viscount
I'd consider high catching to be 60+.
wouldnt he be better at WR at that point?
I'd consider high catching to be 60+.
wouldnt he be better at WR at that point?
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