Warrior General Games

Originally posted by gtthom86
I'm level 33 and haven't spent a sp in SAs. I don;t think it can be considered experimental, LB SAs are so relativly useless its almost obvious

Its experimental in the fact that its posted and I'll make my results known to the masses. But with you having said that...you'd put your LB's stats against anyone who has SAs as equal or better as proof that they are useless?

Originally posted by Darren McFadden
By level 40 you'll definitely play better if you get some SAs.

Assuming that you've tried this..at what point did you realize that you needed them and what led you to believe they worked?

I'd like to hear from a level 35+ LB who has some good base attributes and 6+ points into at least ONE Special Ability before we write SAs for LBs off. I'm going to be getting Monster Hit to 6 when we can boost for next year. I'm on a friends team in Oceania A4 and I'm level 41. So if Monster Hit doesn't work for me this next year, then I'll write it off.

Ok but how may SPs have you dumped into the other SAs in between to get Monster Hit to 6?

Originally posted by Zsirvone28
I'd like to hear from a level 35+ LB who has some good base attributes and 6+ points into at least ONE Special Ability before we write SAs for LBs off. I'm going to be getting Monster Hit to 6 when we can boost for next year. I'm on a friends team in Oceania A4 and I'm level 41. So if Monster Hit doesn't work for me this next year, then I'll write it off.

35+? Check.
Good base attributes? Check.
6+ in some SA? Check.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=439088

For the advocates of LB's not having any SA's, have you considered your LB in his 5th season? Or 8th? Seeing as how we have just concluded the 6th season of GLB and considering that most of us weren't here for Season 1, then it would be safe to assume that most LB's here are still relatively young. Even for my own MLB that was created day 5 of Season 2, he still has half a career ahead of him. And I've always been an advocate of *certain* SA's.

Even if you completely forgo SA's for your entire career, around season 4 or 5 you will face a dilemma. By that time it wouldn't be farfetched to have spd/agi/vis to your 4:1 caps, and str/tckl/stam/conf/jump up to reasonable levels, assuming you built your LB semi-intelligently. At that point, would you really want to spend 3 points for strength? Or two on jumping?

This would be a much more valid discussion once numerous players have reached the 10-season plateau and faced the decline in skills/forced retirement planned by Bort at that time. At that point could you truly assess the worth of no-SA LB's vs SA LB's since you'll have a full career to analyze. It's just really, really way too early to ask this question at this point.

But one thing... I'm not a fan of Monster Hit, or any of the "greater chance of forcing fumbles" skills, regardless of position. Not saying they don't work, but I just don't value forcing fumbles very highly as a defensive player.

I dont understand your point for waiting 3-4 more seasons before bringing this up. Just looking at posts in this thread, its apparent that everyone above lvl 35 has invested into SAs. They either did most of it early or later on in their player's career but no one above that level has come forward and said they purposely held out on SAs and have found the point at which their player NEEDED SAs.
I have a level 36 LB created in season 2 also and I'm not too sure the SA's I have are having any effect on my player. I have seen threads where agents debate what SA actually works, how much into a SA before it takes effect, which attributes and at what levels activate them.
Every season we find out that there is "secret ingredient" in a attribute we havent been focusing on so everyone dumps their next set of boost there to bring their players to the new standard.
I'm not claiming that I'm doing something new or cutting edge, I am just fact finding. Process by elimination. If nothing else, like I stated before, I want to see how long my junior LB can go without spending SPs on him. Use all those would be SA points into those base attributes (secret ingredients) and get the most from them before (or if ever) investing into SAs. By the time the first season LBs reach past their 10th season and begin declining my junior LB should be in his late 20s, early 30s were most agents are being ADVISED NOW to start investing heavily into SAs. His performance at that point, plus input from those 1st season players will determine if he can continue to move forward without SAs or give me a solid answer to when its needed and what actual effect SAs have. I see no reason to wait.

Originally posted by wallysmith
By that time it wouldn't be farfetched to have spd/agi/vis to your 4:1 caps, and str/tckl/stam/conf/jump up to reasonable levels, assuming you built your LB semi-intelligently. At that point, would you really want to spend 3 points for strength? Or two on jumping?


If it keeps me from putting 3 SP in Snarl, another 3 SP in Aura of Int so I can put 4 SP in Dive Tackling to just bring that SA to 4 (10 SP total) yea I would settle for spending 2 or 3 in jumping.

let me clarify that I do plan on adding SA's eventually, but at this point in my development I really can't see them having as beneficial as an effect as simply boosting raw stats. I think getting speed, agility, vision to the 2nd cap and str, tack, jump to the 1st cap is a more pressing priority than any of the LB SAs. With the exception of D general, I just don't see a positive return compared to raw stats before the second cap.

Next season, my most likely plan will be to devote all 15sp from boosting directly into SAs (shed block, swat ball, big sack)- the first points ive ever spent there and a AEQ that should add +3 or +4 big sack by that time. I'm thinking i should have a pretty good idea how effective they are given the sudden dramatic increase.

That would occur at the start of my 5 season, at about level 40. Watching my player, I just don't see plays where I say "damn I wish I had more shed block or swat ball", and when it costs 8+ sp to actually see returns on a SA raw stats just seem more cost effective. But we will see, LB SAs seem the hardest to gage effectiveness.

And, btw, I'm only speaking for OLBs. Haven't tried to build a mlb but I assume D general would be helpful.

Thanks for your input Gtthom86, I'll be keeping an eye on your LB if you dont mind to see what happens.

Originally posted by kentrol72
I dont understand your point for waiting 3-4 more seasons before bringing this up. Just looking at posts in this thread, its apparent that everyone above lvl 35 has invested into SAs. They either did most of it early or later on in their player's career but no one above that level has come forward and said they purposely held out on SAs and have found the point at which their player NEEDED SAs.
I have a level 36 LB created in season 2 also and I'm not too sure the SA's I have are having any effect on my player. I have seen threads where agents debate what SA actually works, how much into a SA before it takes effect, which attributes and at what levels activate them.
Every season we find out that there is "secret ingredient" in a attribute we havent been focusing on so everyone dumps their next set of boost there to bring their players to the new standard.
I'm not claiming that I'm doing something new or cutting edge, I am just fact finding. Process by elimination. If nothing else, like I stated before, I want to see how long my junior LB can go without spending SPs on him. Use all those would be SA points into those base attributes (secret ingredients) and get the most from them before (or if ever) investing into SAs. By the time the first season LBs reach past their 10th season and begin declining my junior LB should be in his late 20s, early 30s were most agents are being ADVISED NOW to start investing heavily into SAs. His performance at that point, plus input from those 1st season players will determine if he can continue to move forward without SAs or give me a solid answer to when its needed and what actual effect SAs have. I see no reason to wait.

I think you're missing my point. Whether or not SA's are effective and worth the points is an ongoing debate that won't truly be resolved unless Bort reveals the formulae behind everything. My point is that because of the nature of player building, at a certain point your returns on skill points will diminish steadily unless you invest in SA's. Once you cap all the tertiary attributes like confidence, jumping, and stamina... what's left? What are you training? Is it really worth it spending your 3 boosts on 7 points of confidence or stamina? Or getting only an 8% return on your best-yielding training regimen? If you're so quick to cap physical attributes early in your player's career, then you're just limiting future returns on training.

For the record, I've never said to build up SA's early; in fact, I don't even recommend touching SA's until the mid to late 30's depending on how well you built your LB. Around this time is approximately when spd/agi/vision are at least 3:1 capped, str/tckl are 2:1 capped, and jump/stam/conf/catching/blocking are all at reasonable levels from natural level gains and training. It is at this point where you can start using your SP's for your tertiary attributes (but training can do this as well), or for SA's. Going down the SA route at this point will give you the most bang for your buck; you can't train SA's, nor are your remaining attributes really worth the investment of skill points since training will provide the most efficient returns.

Originally posted by wallysmith


I think you're missing my point. Whether or not SA's are effective and worth the points is an ongoing debate that won't truly be resolved unless Bort reveals the formulae behind everything. My point is that because of the nature of player building, at a certain point your returns on skill points will diminish steadily unless you invest in SA's. Once you cap all the tertiary attributes like confidence, jumping, and stamina... what's left? What are you training? Is it really worth it spending your 3 boosts on 7 points of confidence or stamina? Or getting only an 8% return on your best-yielding training regimen? If you're so quick to cap physical attributes early in your player's career, then you're just limiting future returns on training.


Thats cool, but if I'm able to distribute SPs into tertiary (nice word) attributes, making my player more well rounded and in the process get the same performance from not investing into SAs that a player that has..then who cares about training. Really.
And I can just save the SPs gained until I can make use of them at a higher count.

When building a player in the conventional manner you don't train your primary attributes because your put SPs into them when you lvl up or boost. Why? Because you get more points into them quicker than you could by training by the slow process of training by %s. It would take you an entire season to get 5 points (if that many) to soft cap an attribute thats already at 43.

But building my player the way I'm proposing takes me in a different direction.

Originally posted by kentrol72

Thats cool, but if I'm able to distribute SPs into tertiary (nice word) attributes, making my player more well rounded and in the process get the same performance from not investing into SAs that a player that has..then who cares about training. Really.
And I can just save the SPs gained until I can make use of them at a higher count.

When building a player in the conventional manner you don't train your primary attributes because your put SPs into them when you lvl up or boost. Why? Because you get more points into them quicker than you could by training by the slow process of training by %s. It would take you an entire season to get 5 points (if that many) to soft cap an attribute thats already at 43.

But building my player the way I'm proposing takes me in a different direction.


I understand your point and everything, it's just that at a certain point diminishing returns takes hold. Let's say at some level you've got most things capped at some threshold and you've got, say, jumping at 43. Yes, you can spend your 5 skill points in this to cap it, but the opportunity cost is not pumping something that enhances a primary attribute for your LB, like Shed Block. Also, you're so quick to dismiss training but the fact is that it's an integral part of your player's build. It's perfect to raise those attributes that aren't *crucial* to the success of your player but shouldn't be neglected either (stam/conf/jump/catch come to mind). By using valuable skill points in these tertiary attributes you're hurting yourself in the long run when everything you train gets terrible returns since you put points in it previously.

For the record, I'm not saying you're building your player wrong... I just think that it's a bit premature to declare a no-SA LB when there aren't any players out there that have played a full career yet, and have had to deal with the dilemma of nowhere to put their SP's. SA's are the perfect place for that.

Ok how about this, you build a player to prove SAs are needed and I'll build one to see IF they are. It just seems that you are quick to dismiss this idea simply because more senior players (by one and 1/2 seasons) haven't peeked and declined yet.
Training is a moot point. The only concerning factor is if the player performs, period. If my player doesn't perform, I'll retire him. Simple.

You all can take what you want from what I do. If you find it useful, good. If you have some facts to contribute, or if you've done this yourself and have results you'd like to share, I more than welcome it. If you find it a waist, cool but I dont want to do a back and forth to justify what I'm doing just because you feel that you have a better understanding of the game than I.

I still don't think you get my point about diminishing returns, but that's ok. I'm not debating this for the sake of argument, all I'm saying is that in later seasons the cost of increasing attributes for a no-SA LB will be too prohibitive.

To illustrate, once your LB is in Season 6 or 7 and you're spending 5 skill points on 1 point of Jumping and 1 point of Stamina, or use your 3 boosts on 3 points of Agility, is that really worth it? Are SA's so detestable that you have to completely disregard them? I'm not saying you HAVE to use SA's or that they're needed; just that they become relatively more "cheaper" once your player gets older and you have attributes hitting 4:1 and 5:1 caps. Nor am I arguing that SA's are worthwhile or effective, just that they become a far more productive target for your skill points when your LB gets older.

I mean I'm not dismissing your idea at all, I just don't think that you're looking at this from a long term perspective over the entire career of your player. If this was like a "no-SA for X amount of seasons" idea, then it would be far more palatable.