Warrior General Games

Originally posted by Tito716
Just make sure you apply the "combo back" theory to "power backs" with 50+ speed as well. They tend to not like that...

But yes.

That is the point I was trying to make with my 3,3,3,3,3 post.

But, I'd rather have 48 strength than 3 in quick cut (passive) and 19 points tied up in SAs that will never (practically) go off. The other 25 Sp you speak of would only improve the build to 5,4,5,5,4, which is better, but still not really a highly effective SA distribution.

As an elusive back, I tried to design my player to be faster than the D line and LBs and then stronger than the CBs. I'll take a dice roll against the safeties any day of the week. Even if they get me 9 out of 10, thats 1-3 touchdowns per game I should score.

EDIT: For the record...

Strength: 49.53
Speed: 74.19
Agility: 70.19





Speed is an *entirely* different application than STR/AGI. No SA's rely on speed to be effective, and it is a universal requirement for a HB capable of breaking off big gains. It is more important for an elusive back, as speed is a requirement to create separation to elude opponents.

The elusive concept is that rather than using STR to break a tackle, you use agility, jukes, cuts, and spins to break tackles and bypass defenders. A pure elusive back should never even rely on a strength roll to break a tackle.

Originally posted by taurran

Speed is an *entirely* different application than STR/AGI. No SA's rely on speed to be effective, and it is a universal requirement for a HB capable of breaking off big gains. It is more important for an elusive back, as speed is a requirement to create separation to elude opponents.

The elusive concept is that rather than using STR to break a tackle, you use agility, jukes, cuts, and spins to break tackles and bypass defenders. A pure elusive back should never even rely on a strength roll to break a tackle.

An argument could be made that speed is required for First Step to be effective. Regaining top speed is the elusive part of slowing down. If you lack a sufficient top speed, a boost to acceleration is pointless.

And the strength roll is just part of why I like having softcapped strength. There is also a degree of fumble protection.

I agree with you, in theory. I feel that CB agility cancels out HB agility. Let's say that the differential is 70 vs. 60. By building strength (preferably only from 30-48 with SPs) you can create and 20+ differential advantage over the CB trying to tackle you on an outside run.

Originally posted by Tito716
An argument could be made that speed is required for First Step to be effective. Regaining top speed is the elusive part of slowing down. If you lack a sufficient top speed, a boost to acceleration is pointless.

And the strength roll is just part of why I like having softcapped strength. There is also a degree of fumble protection.

I agree with you, in theory. I feel that CB agility cancels out HB agility. Let's say that the differential is 70 vs. 60. By building strength (preferably only from 30-48 with SPs) you can create and 20+ differential advantage over the CB trying to tackle you on an outside run.

You're leaving out some key factors here. Remember we're discussing breaking tackles.

- Agility is more important than First Step, as agility assists in breaking tackles, and also accomplishes the goal of elusive SA effectiveness.

- You will never be required to rely on a strength roll if your agility, carrying, and Spin are high enough to break through most tacklers. This should also alleviate the fumbling issue.

- Elusive HB's should have higher agility than the average cornerback. I'm not talking about the weak 50 HB agility that is the norm here, either. An elusive back is not elusive enough if he's under 70 agility. Once you have that agility level, your SA's will tip the scales in your favor.

- You're assuming that the str and agility are factored into the same roll. With a pure elusive back, str may never even come into play as you'll execute an agility based SA to avoid/break the tackle before contact is even made.

Let's face it, 25-30 SP's to soft cap strength is a LOT at early levels. If you took those points and dropped them into agility or speed at an early point, those will equate to much more effective gains at a later stage in development. For instance, my full spd/agi HB will be at around 90/90 by his late 30's with a full set of SA's mostly due to early building, equipment, and level progression. We'll have to compare how they perform at that point.

Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by Tito716

An argument could be made that speed is required for First Step to be effective. Regaining top speed is the elusive part of slowing down. If you lack a sufficient top speed, a boost to acceleration is pointless.

And the strength roll is just part of why I like having softcapped strength. There is also a degree of fumble protection.

I agree with you, in theory. I feel that CB agility cancels out HB agility. Let's say that the differential is 70 vs. 60. By building strength (preferably only from 30-48 with SPs) you can create and 20+ differential advantage over the CB trying to tackle you on an outside run.

You're leaving out some key factors here. Remember we're discussing breaking tackles.

- Agility is more important than First Step, as agility assists in breaking tackles, and also accomplishes the goal of elusive SA effectiveness.

- You will never be required to rely on a strength roll if your agility, carrying, and Spin are high enough to break through most tacklers. This should also alleviate the fumbling issue.

- Elusive HB's should have higher agility than the average cornerback. I'm not talking about the weak 50 HB agility that is the norm here, either. An elusive back is not elusive enough if he's under 70 agility. Once you have that agility level, your SA's will tip the scales in your favor.

- You're assuming that the str and agility are factored into the same roll. With a pure elusive back, str may never even come into play as you'll execute an agility based SA to avoid/break the tackle before contact is even made.

Let's face it, 25-30 SP's to soft cap strength is a LOT at early levels. If you took those points and dropped them into agility or speed at an early point, those will equate to much more effective gains at a later stage in development. For instance, my full spd/agi HB will be at around 90/90 by his late 30's with a full set of SA's mostly due to early building, equipment, and level progression. We'll have to compare how they perform at that point.

I think we agree a lot more than you realize. I just think that the 18 points I spent in strength were a good investment. Besides, you won't always make your agility or elusive rolls. If there is an entire separate roll for strength breaking tackles. I may like stength even more. That would give me an entire extra roll against CBs. If you are willing to dismiss strength, what about carrying? Once again, not for the break tackles, but for the fumble protection.

Strength is worth it to 48 because you will be getting tackled 20+ times per game. A lost fumble can easily offset a touchdown.

Originally posted by Tito716
I think we agree a lot more than you realize. I just think that the 18 points I spent in strength were a good investment. Besides, you won't always make your agility or elusive rolls. If there is an entire separate roll for strength breaking tackles. I may like stength even more. That would give me an entire extra roll against CBs. If you are willing to dismiss strength, what about carrying? Once again, not for the break tackles, but for the fumble protection.

Strength is worth it to 48 because you will be getting tackled 20+ times per game. A lost fumble can easily offset a touchdown.

For me, str and carrying are just skills to train. In my builds I'm thinking long term, playing backup until I get into the mid 30s probably. I've been considering using a few points on Cover Up as it's the first SA in the power tree, and would be useful for an elusive back as well. Still debating that one...

Maybe way down the road when the player has enough SA's to be be dominant I'll consider using some hard earned SP's in str, but not until everything else is done.

Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by Tito716

I think we agree a lot more than you realize. I just think that the 18 points I spent in strength were a good investment. Besides, you won't always make your agility or elusive rolls. If there is an entire separate roll for strength breaking tackles. I may like stength even more. That would give me an entire extra roll against CBs. If you are willing to dismiss strength, what about carrying? Once again, not for the break tackles, but for the fumble protection.

Strength is worth it to 48 because you will be getting tackled 20+ times per game. A lost fumble can easily offset a touchdown.

For me, str and carrying are just skills to train. In my builds I'm thinking long term, playing backup until I get into the mid 30s probably. I've been considering using a few points on Cover Up as it's the first SA in the power tree, and would be useful for an elusive back as well. Still debating that one...

Maybe way down the road when the player has enough SA's to be be dominant I'll consider using some hard earned SP's in str, but not until everything else is done.

Yeah. I think we are appraoching the same idea from different angles.

I assume you are talking about your 22. About level 20 (Cap 2 spd and agility) I started putting points into carrying and strength. I had trained both of them to 28 and 30 I think. They each give me a small amount of break tackle (since all HBs get tackled) and help me not fumble. I think I fumbling about once every 50-60 carries.

The bonus growth you are achieving in spd and agility is great. I want the same thing in str and carrying. I took em to 48 and now I can ignore them while they accrue points over time. I have no intention of putting points in Cover Up. My power back with 70 strength and 5 in Cover Up and 40 in carrying fumbles more often than my elusive back.

You can take that for what its worth...

Originally posted by Tito716
Yeah. I think we are appraoching the same idea from different angles.

I assume you are talking about your 22. About level 20 (Cap 2 spd and agility) I started putting points into carrying and strength. I had trained both of them to 28 and 30 I think. They each give me a small amount of break tackle (since all HBs get tackled) and help me not fumble. I think I fumbling about once every 50-60 carries.

The bonus growth you are achieving in spd and agility is great. I want the same thing in str and carrying. I took em to 48 and now I can ignore them while they accrue points over time. I have no intention of putting points in Cover Up. My power back with 70 strength and 5 in Cover Up and 40 in carrying fumbles more often than my elusive back.

You can take that for what its worth...



So I hear. I believe HB fumbles are a bit off right now. I've had WR's with 20 carrying on KR's never fumble. We put a HB in at KR that had 35 carrying and more str and he fumbled 1-2x per game. It almost seems like Bort put a fumble penalty on HB's to force the use of str/carry/cover up.

What's funny is that you're getting a fumble every 50-60 carries. My 22 HB has a fumble every 60 carries this season. He must not be doing that bad with very low str/carry.

I don't really expect him to be much good until early season 7 when he approaches level 32. Oh, and he's already well beyond the 2nd cap on agi/spd.

I think going to the 3:1 or 4:1 cap with both speed and agility is better than strength

Originally posted by Nuge20
I think going to the 3:1 or 4:1 cap with both speed and agility is better than strength

I agree. By 3:1 do you mean the point where they start to become 3sp per (60.x), or the point at which they stop being 3sp per and start being 4sp per (67.x)?

Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by Nuge20

I think going to the 3:1 or 4:1 cap with both speed and agility is better than strength

I agree. By 3:1 do you mean the point where they start to become 3sp per (60.x), or the point at which they stop being 3sp per and start being 4sp per (67.x)?

Any top flight elusive HB should be aiming to get to the 4 cap (67) in speed and agility, IMO.

Originally posted by Kingdan23
Originally posted by taurran

Originally posted by Nuge20


I think going to the 3:1 or 4:1 cap with both speed and agility is better than strength

I agree. By 3:1 do you mean the point where they start to become 3sp per (60.x), or the point at which they stop being 3sp per and start being 4sp per (67.x)?

Any top flight elusive HB should be aiming to get to the 4 cap (67) in speed and agility, IMO.

agreed

This can be accomplished in 3 seasons. Then you have 7 more for speed/agility to increase natually while you put points in your specials and anything else you so choose.

Originally posted by TesT
Agreed

This can be accomplished in 3 seasons. Then you have 7 more for speed/agility to increase natually while you put points in your specials and anything else you so choose.


2 seasons.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=731299

Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by TesT

Agreed

This can be accomplished in 3 seasons. Then you have 7 more for speed/agility to increase natually while you put points in your specials and anything else you so choose.


2 seasons.

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=731299

And that is why my punter gets no xp

Going to be an absolute monster build - pretty much there now.

Im just going to argue for arguments sake as I have nothing better to do at work


Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by Tito716
- Agility is more important than First Step, as agility assists in breaking tackles, and also accomplishes the goal of elusive SA effectiveness.


Agility has not been proven to break tackles as far as I know. Niether has carrying. I know bort may have stated something or another about it, but prove it. I would also argue that first step and agility go hand in hand so neither is more important than the other.


Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by Tito716
You will never be required to rely on a strength roll if your agility, carrying, and Spin are high enough to break through most tacklers. This should also alleviate the fumbling issue.


Saying NEVER is taking it a bit to far. Are you telling me you are going to juke everyone out there? Why even play the game. You have already won by scoring touchdowns on every rush.

I argue this point because I am in one of the toughest rusing defense leagues in the game and both halfbacks(elusive) on my team have atleast 40 strength. Guess which team is #1 in rushing yards not to mention both of the backs average over 8ypc







Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by Tito716

- Elusive HB's should have higher agility than the average cornerback. I'm not talking about the weak 50 HB agility that is the norm here, either. An elusive back is not elusive enough if he's under 70 agility. Once you have that agility level, your SA's will tip the scales in your favor.



Its still a fact that speed backs are more effective than "elusive" backs. 70 agility is a good number to shoot for. Are we talking natural 70 or with equipment.



Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by Tito716
- You're assuming that the str and agility are factored into the same roll. With a pure elusive back, str may never even come into play as you'll execute an agility based SA to avoid/break the tackle before contact is even made.



You are assuming they are not






Originally posted by taurran
Originally posted by Tito716

sorry for the F8ucked up quoting. I dont feel like fixing it either.