Warrior General Games

The idiocy of Sen. Obama?

I'd be willing to wager that Obama would be considered the more intelligent of the two candidates. Not an attack on McCain by any means, just an acknowledgment of Obama's accomplishments and ability.

He's also the better orator and writer.
I'd be surprised if he doesn't come out of the debates with a larger lead. He's already beginning to pull away on the economy.

McCain has even acknowledged in the past that economics isn't his strong suit. As our declining economy rapidly becomes the #1 issue for most Americans, he loses footing. He previously was viewed by most Americans as being a superior choice for homeland security and national defense; he probably still is. That isn't as important to Americans right now, though.

no point in discussing anything here. we've all made up our minds and it's only a matter of time before "if you don't like it, then get the hell out of the country" starts flying around.

Originally posted by i cant stop
This bill is very socialistic(a democratic ideal).. and it's very puzzling.


I agree a lot with your post, but not with this statement. It is very elitist (which is right where you would expect the Republicans to be). It won't help any 'real' people. It is a place for the super-rich banks to put their poor investments. The people with bad loans will still have bad loans at the same interest rates, but the banks who gave them the loans will be off the hook. That is why people are demanding an executive compensation cap, because they know that the dirtbags will take advantage of an opportunity. That's why they have so much money. You cannot argue that the banks are victims in this situation, because they made the decision to give ARMs and interest-only loans to people, and knew their financial capabilities. It was a very dumb play on both sides.

Now where do you think this money is coming from? They say that 'the taxpayers' will pay for it. What will really happen is that they will borrow more money from China, or invent the money themselves. Either one will devalue the dollar, and that, in my opinion, should be the biggest worry on everyone's mind. Think of what this bill would do: 1) It will greatly devalue the dollar. 2) It will give banks billions of dollars. In effect, it is taking money from you and I, and giving it to rich people who made very bad decisions with their money.

Originally posted by i cant stop

NObama. Go McCain/Palin.

On what grounds do you think McCain/Palin are the better choice?

'Drill baby drill'? The DoE has published a study indicating that due to the logistics involved (getting the equipment, etc...) that oil drilled offshore wouldn't make it into our gas tanks until almost 2030. That seems useful. And even then, it won't be anywhere close to the amount of oil that we use. OPEC will just cut production to keep prices high.

Or are you going with the argument that Bush has done such a good job for the country that we should elect someone who's voted with him over 90% of the time?

Or maybe you think that his likely choices for advisers (many coming from big banking/freddy mac/fannie mae) and his self-stated lack of economic policy would be best for the country?

Or maybe you think that Palin will be good for dealing with Russia, because she's from Alaska (which is near Russia, in case you hadn't heard)?

I realize I'm not going to change anyone's mind with this, but how in the world can McCain be better than Obama? IF this was the 2000 McCain, I'd be more likely to agree, but this is not the same McCain that we saw then. Since then, he's shifted his entire focus towards placating the right wing, and he's not the Maverick that he used to be. And the fact that he's approving campaign ads that are just flat out lies?!?!?!! I'm honestly very disappointed in a man I once respected. He's gone the way of Karl Rove, which is win at any cost. At any cost to himself, to his opponent, and to his country.

Isn't this the thing that people always complain about with politicians? That they lie, cheat and steal? Then why are so many people still supporting McCain, because he's definitely lying and just playing the game.

While Obama may not be able to fix everything, he's going to go a long way towards restoring America's world standing, and hopefully fixing some of the problems that W has left.

Thanks,
StickMan

Originally posted by i cant stop
I think you'll truly see the idiocy of Sen. Obama come out during these debates, and you'll decide which candidate is better: John McCain.

and PD:
Yes, the middle class did put us in this position. They overspent and got neck deep into credit card debt and couldn't climb out. This is going to cost a doctor friend of mine 20 grand on a clinic he owns. That's a pretty good size tax.

The middle class was involved in this, but how can you blame them for taking advantage of what was presented to them?

The truth is that after the dot-com bubble started to deflate, there was a lot of excess cash floating around our country and with interest rates so low, it naturally fed money into the housing market. So when you could buy a house and the value of that house would go up 10-15% a year, how could you not buy a house? What else was there to do for the middle class? Put your money into a low rate money market, or CD, bonds or a average performing stock market, where you'd be lucky to make 8%? People bit off more than they could chew because housing prices were going up some much that it was the best investment out there, and the gains justified the risk.

This was compounded by the greedy banks giving out loans to people that they shouldn't have. The middle class was just taking advantage of what was there. The banks should have been more careful with their money.

So while there is plenty of blame to go around, I think the majority of it has to go on the banks.

Finally, I fail to understand your point that because middle class people ran up debt, that "a doctor friend" of yours is going to be out 20k. Can you clarify?

Thanks,
StickMan

go stick!

Ok, I'll bite. Not because I want to change anyone's opinion, just to state mine.

I think that the best choice is McCain/Palin. I am from Illinois, and Obama is my senator. Or at least he is supposed to be. Most of his time in office he has spent campaigning for President, which by the way he specifically promised he was not going to do when he was running for senate (my point: they all lie, even the ones that everyone likes).

I honestly don't care that Obama or Palin don't have much experience. What I do care about is the safety of our country, the economy and how much it is going to cost me every year. Obama hasn't done anything for the state of Illinois in his time in the state senate or the US senate, why should I vote for him for President? Being able to deliver a good speech doesn't make him qualified in my opinion.

As for view points, I don't agree with everything about McCain or disagree with everything about Obama but on most things I agree with McCain.

Originally posted by cosine4

I am from Illinois, and Obama is my senator. Or at least he is supposed to be. Most of his time in office he has spent campaigning for President, which by the way he specifically promised he was not going to do when he was running for senate (my point: they all lie, even the ones that everyone likes).


Just out of curiosity....what do you think John McCain has been doing for the last year or so?

The same thing to Arizona. Except only worse than Obama did to Illinois.
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/vote-missers/
McCain has missed 64.1% (412/643) of the votes.
Obama missed 45.9% (295/643) of the votes.

I will agree with you on this point, and I think that the presidential campaign system as it works now is ridiculous. These people don't actually get anything done for their current jobs when they run for president. It's completely retarded.
I think they should appoint someone else to do their job in the senate, house of state government while they run for president, because otherwise they are failing the people who elected them in the first place.

Oh, and thanks for biting

StickMan

The difference in my opinion, albeit a small difference, is that McCain has been a senator for a long time. So looking at his career as a senator he has put in a lot of effort doing what he was elected to do before running for president. Obama on the other hand was elected to the senate so that he could run for president.

But for me, this is just a small piece of the puzzle. I am voting the way that I am because of how I feel the candidate will do the job, not how he got there. In my opinion, I think that McCain will do a better job of making decisions and leading the country based on his view points and his actions throughout his career. For the record, I am not all that excited about either candidate, just picking the one I think will do the best job. On the other hand, I am very intrigued by Palin. She seems very down to earth and connected to what the "average" person's concerns and day to day issues are, unlike the typical politician (McCain and Obama included) that does not relate well to the average person even if their speeches paint a different picture.

This thread indicates the problem to me with the presidential election. There are not 2 candidates, there are 5 or 6. People have just accepted the fact that they will have to live with either a democrat or a republican, and then they preach that one is better than the other. This election thrives off peoples' ignorance, and it is becoming the epitome of the USA: We like whatever the media tells us is best. What do any of you REALLY know about any of the candidates. Unless you work with or around them every day, you probably know nothing. What you PERCEIVE is the picture that the parties paint for you through the media. Anyone can say anything on TV, and America believes it as fact and we are led to believe that we know everything about the major issues. I know that I don't know shit about what is really going on. That's why I'm voting independent. The Democrats and Republicans are way too comfortable, in my opinion, with the status quo. They know that it's either one or the other, so they concentrate only on the issues that make the other one look bad. I believe that if the people present another option that cannot be pinned down by either party, campaigns will become slightly more truthful. Then, maybe, we might get a politician in office that will do what he says he will do.

Nice post, dvdatm. I agree with a lot of points that you made.

The problem with the Dem vs Repub thing, though, is that those are the only 2 parties that meet the requirements to gain campaign assistance (money) through the government, or us as taxpayers, really. Because of this, to a lot of people, mostly the uninformed, think there are only 2 parties in existence, and they root for them like they would their local NFL/NHL/MLB, etc team. No matter what the candidate says, they go along with it because "they're a Dem/Repub." This will by my 4th presidential election that I've voted in, and I've yet to vote for a Dem or Repub for president. For Congress, I go with which candidate I like the best, regardless of the D or R next to his/her name. For the foreseeable future, though, I don't see any other parties that may come in and assert themselves into the political landscape like the Dems and Repubs have. And because of this, they get no help from the taxpayers' candidate pool of money, so they have to earn or raise anything they need to campaign with. The system is broken, but what's the fix?

Beats me, dude. I would like to think that by displaying my concern for the "that's how it is" attitude, I can make people at least think about the way things are. But it is so ingrained in our culture. I will do what I think is best, as should everyone else. It is America still, right?

Originally posted by dvdatm
This thread indicates the problem to me with the presidential election. There are not 2 candidates, there are 5 or 6.

While this is technically true, the reality of it is that one of the two major parties are going to win.

I wish we had a more open election process, because I'll also agree that neither the republicans nor democrats seem to be doing a ton of good for our country at this point. You touched on the biggest problem with having more than 2 parties for the presidential election, the money. Unless a party's candidate received 5% of the vote in the previous election, they are not eligible for public general election funding. So this limits the parties (realistically) to the democratic and republican parties. And as long as those two parties are in control of congress, they aren't going to change that.

Additionally, a lot of people in this country view 'minor' parties as wack-jobs and don't take them seriously, which compounds the difficulty they have getting legitimate messages across.

Got any ideas on how to change that? Unless the American people start electing independent/green/whatever party candidates to the house of representatives and the senate.....Me neither.

Thanks,
StickMan

yea stickman hits the nail on the head, with a two party system in control of about 50% of everything each you get congressional gridlock... which ultimately = little change... or progression.

Originally posted by Stickman

Got any ideas on how to change that? Unless the American people start electing independent/green/whatever party candidates to the house of representatives and the senate.....Me neither.

Thanks,
StickMan

Exactly. The only way things will change is if everyone wakes up and really searches for what they want. However, the 2-party system is served to everyone on a platter, and therefore is easier to digest. I have refused to vote for the past 8 years because I didn't see any way around the same old bullshit, and I didn't want to contribute at all. Now, I am discovering that there are more options, and I am telling whoever I can. Hell, if you like posting and reading whatever the fuck you want on internet forums, take a look at the libertarian party.

I am sure that not everyone wants a complete restructure of the government. I'm sure that there are people who believe in exactly what McCain or Obama believe in. Although, I don't think this is the majority. I just talked to my buddy at work about voting independent. He said,"I'm voting for McCain because I DON'T WANT OBAMA." Is this really what our vote is meant to do? To keep something you don't want our of office in exchange for something you can barely tolerate? That's not what I want my vote to mean, so I am doing something about it.

I do know that an independent can't win.... for now.