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Mob-6
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You guys make no sense. You are essentially saying you want to build a submarine, but you don't want it to submerge and you are going to be upset when people call it a boat. If you put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig. Speed is the highest attribute then you have a speedster, no matter where your other attributes lie.

Just my opinion. If you would like to tell me what makes a possession receiver I would be glad to listen.
 
Djinnt
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All wide receivers are fast.

Possession WRs are route specialists. They create separation by cutting off their defender and running the appropriate route. They make it so that the CB has to turn his body to maintain speed, require lots of agility, foresight, and luck. One problem with this is that CBs in GLB are glue to WRs. If they can run fast enough they can stay on them. If they are within 3 feet of the WR they can deflect or cause a drop, unlike in real life where body position has a hell of a lot to do with the ability to interrupt a catch.

Speedsters create separation by running faster and making better cuts than the defender. They virtually outperform them and get open, or they don't outperform them and watch the ball get thrown to someone else.

The differences are actually very little. They both are required to be fast, with quick reflexes, and the ability to catch the ball. Possession receivers because of their placement should pretty much expect to be tackled by one of many defenders. Considering a speed guy will likely be past his CB if he's catching the ball, he only has the FS or SS to get past before he has tremendous YAC (this is assuming his catching ability is good enough to grab the ball without having to stop or juggle).
Possession guys require higher jumping and catching again because of their placement. If you're catching a 5-7 yard pass, someone is going to be covering you, and getting intercepted for the chance at a mere 5-7 yard play would be disgusting and worthless in your playbook.

I say that possession WRs aren't any good in GLB simply because of lack of options in offensive AI. If you have all possession guys on your team you can plan for it, if you don't you're SOL.

I also don't think vision has anything to do with either type of WR's ability to get open. However, I do believe it has a lot to do with catching the ball and getting YAC. If you play special teams as a WR, vision is a must in my opinion.
 
Viscount
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Originally posted by Mob-6
You guys make no sense. You are essentially saying you want to build a submarine, but you don't want it to submerge and you are going to be upset when people call it a boat. If you put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig. Speed is the highest attribute then you have a speedster, no matter where your other attributes lie.

Just my opinion. If you would like to tell me what makes a possession receiver I would be glad to listen.


That's so simple minded thinking that good speed means you're not anything other than a speedster WR. By your reasoning all the example WRs in the guide to creating players are speedsters.

Speed is king for all WRs.
 
Mob-6
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I'm looking at the GLB WR possession tree, Route Run, which is suggested for WRs with low agility and low speed. Sounds to me like Bort wants possession receivers to put the bulk of their points into something other than speed/agility. Wouldn't it seem to be a waste to have to take route run if you are plugging speed and agility, just to get to the possession SAs.
 
Viscount
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Whilst it does say it's very important for WRs who are not very fast or agile, it does not say that if you have high speed or agility you won't get the bonus.
It also says it gives a bonus to speed and agility only whilst running a route, therefore you don't get the bonus after the catch so you rely on your own speed and agility. So although YAC isn't the most important thing for a possession WR, if you have good speed and agility you'll get better YAC than if you rely on the route run SA.
Last edited Sep 21, 2008 14:34:38
 
shepster
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in turn wat say to a cb plays wr4or5?
now am playin a route wr
if e ets open?e qets more pass to play ten a cb covered WR
Last edited Sep 21, 2008 18:36:03
 
zollins5
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Originally posted by Mob-6
You guys make no sense. You are essentially saying you want to build a submarine, but you don't want it to submerge and you are going to be upset when people call it a boat. If you put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig. Speed is the highest attribute then you have a speedster, no matter where your other attributes lie.

Just my opinion. If you would like to tell me what makes a possession receiver I would be glad to listen.


So by what your saying there, if I was to build a sub, I would never be allowed to surface. Subs surface all of the time lol. Just because they are built to be under the water, doesn't mean they can't surface. So just because I have, what I like to call a possession guy, that doesn't mean he can't also be fast.
 
TtD
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Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks
All wide receivers are fast.

Possession WRs are route specialists. They create separation by cutting off their defender and running the appropriate route. They make it so that the CB has to turn his body to maintain speed, require lots of agility, foresight, and luck. One problem with this is that CBs in GLB are glue to WRs. If they can run fast enough they can stay on them. If they are within 3 feet of the WR they can deflect or cause a drop, unlike in real life where body position has a hell of a lot to do with the ability to interrupt a catch.

Speedsters create separation by running faster and making better cuts than the defender. They virtually outperform them and get open, or they don't outperform them and watch the ball get thrown to someone else.

The differences are actually very little. They both are required to be fast, with quick reflexes, and the ability to catch the ball. Possession receivers because of their placement should pretty much expect to be tackled by one of many defenders. Considering a speed guy will likely be past his CB if he's catching the ball, he only has the FS or SS to get past before he has tremendous YAC (this is assuming his catching ability is good enough to grab the ball without having to stop or juggle).
Possession guys require higher jumping and catching again because of their placement. If you're catching a 5-7 yard pass, someone is going to be covering you, and getting intercepted for the chance at a mere 5-7 yard play would be disgusting and worthless in your playbook.

I say that possession WRs aren't any good in GLB simply because of lack of options in offensive AI. If you have all possession guys on your team you can plan for it, if you don't you're SOL.

I also don't think vision has anything to do with either type of WR's ability to get open. However, I do believe it has a lot to do with catching the ball and getting YAC. If you play special teams as a WR, vision is a must in my opinion.



Trying to match up on your thinking here. Firstly I agree that any WR needs at least soft cap speed, it's a main stat for a WR no matter the build design, and worth capping. Beyond that though, I consider the development of a WR to start beyond the soft capping of speed/agility, as beyond that point is where the build takes on character. Up to that point, a WR can be either, it's a kind of in between phase in a WRs development, where you make do, but never dominate, beyond that you have maybe three viable development options, and this point is where I consider the WR to become either speedster, agile, or possession.

This may be where a lot of people start to disagree with me, as a lot find the difference between the builds as minor, and there is a lot of mixing at the edges as all WR builds should have things in common. For arguements sake i'll give a rough description of each build, and how they work.

Speedster-This is a WR, who from the formation state focuses on speed and the speedster tree, from the possession tree they take route run and sticky hands, from speedster they take everything. The build focuses on speed and getting past the CB through physical advantage, little development of jumping, decent catching (40+) and involves being wide open and on the ground when receiving the ball. It's a very raw type of WR, and as such they're prone to drops, and incompletions, but when it connects you get big gains.

Possession/Balanced-This is a WR with a similar build to the speedster, but takes the possession tree more seriously. It's not your traditional NFL possession guy, but focuses on flexibility. High Speed (not quite speedster level), closely followed or matched by agility, focus on good catching skills and solid jumping ability (40+). They make use of raw ability to perform the moves a speedster uses the first step/change direction SA for, and instead look to bring down a higher percentage of passes. They get open slightly less over the top, but the extra jumping and the raw stats let them compete well in coverage. It makes them tough to bring down if they match up level to level with the coverage, but if outlevelled they can be hopeless. It's probably the closest to the base form, as it's basically just an extension of it, and relies on route run and the matchup to get seperation. Best plays for this build are the over the middle passes, the WR cuts inside of the CB and bursts away. Speedsters also take to the route but a possession guy plays it to perfection more often.

Agility-This is the least common of the three WR types, and is perhaps the oddest of builds as it's secondary stat heavy, and requires specific design. The build takes route run and jump catch (I assume every WR has high sticky hands btw) from possession, and first step and change direction from the speedster tree. The build is agility dominant, and needs jumping softcapped. Also helps to have catching 40+ and strength 30+ as the build often faces LB instead of CB. They're basically a glorified weakside TE, classic route would be a sharp sprint to about the 9yds line, stop, cut back creating seperation, use height, strength and the jumping to grab the short pass and spin and cut outside.


Now I agree that the differences can be minor at times, as all WR can catch all kinds of pass at some time or other, but I differ based on their signature play, how often a WR pulls off their classic play for decent gain. I'd argue that while all speedster will work better than all possession, a mix of the three types gives the best results. Receiver position also plays a big effect on the success of the player, I wouldn't play an agility guy in the WR3 streak route heavy spot, but then I wouldn't generally play a speedster at the WR2 spot as it requires them running through the FS over the middle.

 
j10er
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This is all just a way of labeling/describing a WR.

Speedster is heaviest in speed and the Speedster tree.

Possession is more balanced with an emphasis on actual catching skills and the Possession tree.

It's interesting you mention Agility as a 3rd option TtD. Agility WRs can be extremely effective, but are more like Speedsters than Possession WRs. The only difference is the Agility and Speed levels are switched.
 
TtD
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I guess there's a similar theory behind them, but they run such different routes that it would be silly to put them in the same boat. Even on the same play it will look a lot different if you play an alternate style WR at the spot.

If you take the basic over the middle pass to the WR1 for example, the speedster will occassionally go straight ahead, but usually cuts slightly inside. The possession receiver will make a noticeable first cut and will run straight from there until he receives the ball, then will cut again, while an agility back will make the first cut at about 45 degrees, and then just as the QB releases the pass will cut again so he's going across the field.

It's the same play, but due to it being a different build it looks very different from about 5yds beyond the line of scrimmage.
 
Djinnt
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Ideally, imo, all WRs are "agility WRs". They're supposed to excel at acceleration and juking. Unfortunately, elusive running style still isn't what it should be.
 
TtD
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Perhaps, but I think it unlikely DW. It's a matter of differing style and explosiveness in the plays the WR make that makes a team hard to deal with, all WR the same would make a team easier to defend against. In a game like this there will always be some polarisation of the builds to one extreme or the other and I doubt that we'll see anything close to an 'agility WR' coming out of the other builds for a long long time. If anything i'd consider the speed element of the other two types neutralises a lot of the effectiveness of the agility idea, as the speed flattens the direction changes into one devestating cut.

Not sure if i'm just not explaining myself clearly, or i'm trying to explain a concept that most people just haven't seen regularly, but the idea that every WR is the same seems misguided. All solid builds come from the same base development (softcap speed, softcap agility, catching to +30) so there will always be some similarity but it's something that as the levels get higher, i'm guessing will be come more noticeable.
 
PackMan97
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I'm building an agile, possession speedster.

Raw stats rule and specials make your player drool.
 
TtD
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SAs define the player, they have their value in every build. It's more a matter of how you make use of them that counts.
 
PackMan97
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Originally posted by TtD
SAs define the player, they have their value in every build. It's more a matter of how you make use of them that counts.


I guess you disagree.
 
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