Warrior General Games

Originally posted by merenoise
The current Prep, Sophomore and Rookie classes are always fairly big. The problem is that out of that large class maybe 40-50% actually ever makes it to even Semi-Pro. People go inactive, teams realize that they aren't good enough to win in competitive leagues much less Elite and restart, and some people just lose interest. The end result is that by the time those Prep & Rookie classes filter up to the top leagues they are far smaller than they started out.

Even if by some fantastic turn of events those classes stay relatively together and only lose 20-30% of their dots that still leaves 6 or 7 seasons before those dots are National Pro ready which means the sad state of affairs which exists up there goes on for at least that long.

Condense the leagues now, and if necessary expand them back out again down the road when there are enough dots to fill extra leagues.

THIS

Originally posted by merenoise
The current Prep, Sophomore and Rookie classes are always fairly big. The problem is that out of that large class maybe 40-50% actually ever makes it to even Semi-Pro. People go inactive, teams realize that they aren't good enough to win in competitive leagues much less Elite and restart, and some people just lose interest. The end result is that by the time those Prep & Rookie classes filter up to the top leagues they are far smaller than they started out.

Even if by some fantastic turn of events those classes stay relatively together and only lose 20-30% of their dots that still leaves 6 or 7 seasons before those dots are National Pro ready which means the sad state of affairs which exists up there goes on for at least that long.

Condense the leagues now, and if necessary expand them back out again down the road when there are enough dots to fill extra leagues.

I get what you're saying, but even taking that into account those current 3 age groups are still much larger than the 3 before them were 3 seasons ago. Plus, there's the 5 season plateau factor.

I think the % of teams and dots that make it to plateau will increase dramatically thanks to APD, but for the sake of argument, let's say those 3 classes will lose 49% of their teams on their way to plateau. (7% per season.)

Right now prep has approx. 288 teams. Assuming they've already lost 14% of the teams that started at that age, that means they'll take 171 teams into plateau.
Right now sophomore has approx. 224 teams. Assuming they've already lost 7% of the teams that started at that age, that means they'll take 123 teams into plateau.
Right now rookie has approx. 256 teams. that means they'll take 131 teams into plateau.
Let's say the next 2 classes start with approx. 230 teams, that means they'll take 117 teams each into plateau.

So when the current preps are in their final season of plateau, there will be approx. 659 plateaued teams vying for 288 Pro/WL openings. That leaves 371 plateaued teams. Add to that another 133 teams who are in their final season of growth, and Regional Pro will have 504 teams, enough to fill 16 leagues. The Pros and the fight to get into Pros will be much, much more competitive.

Like I said before, I think the suggestion would be worth while on a temporary basis. I just can't see Bort wanting to change it, then change it back post beta. And going down to 160 Pro/WL openings for 659 teams seems like it would be a huge turnoff to the casual player who might never even see Pro.

Originally posted by TruthHammer
And going down to 160 Pro/WL openings for 659 teams seems like it would be a huge turnoff to the casual player who might never even see Pro.


We better start adding more World Leagues asap then!!!

I mean as it currently stands it must be a huge turnoff to the casual player who never even sees it. Best thing to do is break the current WL up, spread it very thinly between 8+ WL's. Sure competition will suck, and the overall player experience wont be as good as it could be, but at least the casual user will get an easy pass to a league that no longer means anything.

Originally posted by Thunder66
We better start adding more World Leagues asap then!!!

I mean as it currently stands it must be a huge turnoff to the casual player who never even sees it. Best thing to do is break the current WL up, spread it very thinly between 8+ WL's. Sure competition will suck, and the overall player experience wont be as good as it could be, but at least the casual user will get an easy pass to a league that no longer means anything.

With 659 plateaued teams vying for the current 288 Pro/WL openings, advancing to pro will hardly be "an easy pass to a league that no longer means anything."

@TruthHammer: I can agree that the shorter path to plateau will allow more of the younger teams and dots to reach it, if only by reducing the opportunities to jump off. I also appreciate the attempt to look at future numbers. Even though I believe a 7% attrition rate to be optimistic, I can't argue against using it.

What I can argue against is the notion that you "just can't see Bort wanting to change it, then change it back post beta." That is exactly what should happen. An announcement X seasons in the future that begins "because of overwhelming demand, we're adding Y leagues" would play much better than "because of staggering decline, we're going to cut Z leagues."

Also, I don't buy that "going down to 160 Pro/WL openings for 659 teams seems like it would be a huge turnoff to the casual player who might never even see Pro," given that the gaming industry's average completion rate is estimated to be 20-25%. But, if it is, see my previous paragraph and add a Pro league when we get there.

(Aside: there's no reason that Pro leagues locked into an "either four or eight" situation. Let the number of Regional Pro leagues determine how many Pro leagues there are. When it comes time to promote/demote from Pro/WL, have the top two teams from each Pro league move up and the equivalent number of WL teams demote. Seems simple enough to me.)

If 4 doesn't work, then do 6..... but I agree that something needs to be do for now.

Originally posted by CDZYO

I think that ship has sailed, but I am nostalgic for those league designations too.



So you create more Reg Pro leagues to deal with the lack of Pro Leagues?

+1 but NGTH because it means less $$$$

Originally posted by TruthHammer
I get what you're saying, but even taking that into account those current 3 age groups are still much larger than the 3 before them were 3 seasons ago. Plus, there's the 5 season plateau factor.

I think the % of teams and dots that make it to plateau will increase dramatically thanks to APD, but for the sake of argument, let's say those 3 classes will lose 49% of their teams on their way to plateau. (7% per season.)



I sincerely doubt that APD will have that much of an effect on the teams resetting as you jump up the caps phenomena. I know of plenty of Rookie teams that are already restarting one season in because of mistakes they made building. If you add in teams lost to inactivity and/or loss of interest due to getting whipped on during the leap that average to below average teams take going from Competitive to Elite leagues and I am pretty confident that the norm will continue to be 8 Rookie leagues dwindling down to 3-4 Semi Pro leagues due to attrition.

Meanwhile in the next few season we have an even more contracted situation going on in the 4 leagues immediately below Semi-Pro where we might not even have enough teams to fill 3 Semi Pro leagues in just a season or two.

I'd rather have a situation where making it to the Pros is much harder (and therefore more satisfying) than the current system where mediocre and just plain bad teams can make it and stick in Pro.

Originally posted by TaySC
If 4 doesn't work, then do 6..... but I agree that something needs to be do for now.

Originally posted by merenoise
Originally posted by TruthHammer

I get what you're saying, but even taking that into account those current 3 age groups are still much larger than the 3 before them were 3 seasons ago. Plus, there's the 5 season plateau factor.

I think the % of teams and dots that make it to plateau will increase dramatically thanks to APD, but for the sake of argument, let's say those 3 classes will lose 49% of their teams on their way to plateau. (7% per season.)


I'd rather have a situation where making it to the Pros is much harder (and therefore more satisfying) than the current system where mediocre and just plain bad teams can make it and stick in Pro.

This is the key to where I disagree with you. I'm thinking more of players than of teams here, but I think that there should be enough Pro teams that virtually all of a "class" of players get to play in Pro for a while. No one should have to spend their plateau in a D League or just retire in plateau (as opposed to during decline), not with the real money we put into the players.

Note that my disagreeing with you doesn't justify an ad hominem attack on me, as you seem to like to do.

Originally posted by merenoise
Originally posted by TaySC

If 4 doesn't work, then do 6..... but I agree that something needs to be do for now.


After looking at the teams with the worst records in a number of national Pro leagues it does seem that right now a reduction to 6 would be called for-- but only if they were willing to raise it back up to 8 if/when the lower classes of players increase the number of Pro-level players enough that 8 is required to accommodate them.

OK IMMA STILL UNDECIDED

U PEOPLES IS MAKING DIS DECISHUN HARD

Originally posted by TaySC
If 4 doesn't work, then do 6..... but I agree that something needs to be do for now.



+1

edit: quote fail

Originally posted by Ken1
This is the key to where I disagree with you. I'm thinking more of players than of teams here, but I think that there should be enough Pro teams that virtually all of a "class" of players get to play in Pro for a while. No one should have to spend their plateau in a D League or just retire in plateau (as opposed to during decline), not with the real money we put into the players.


That is where we disagree, clearly you are part of the trophies for everyone movement. Everyone paying money to play is immaterial to the issue at hand. Everyone pays to play poker, the stronger players commonly end up with the weaker players money. Everyone pays to play WOW, the crappier builders there never hit the heights the good ones do.

imo not everyone should be able to easily make the Pro leagues out of some misguided notion of fairness.

Below average and bad dot builders should never make Pro, average dot builders should make it but never be able to dominate and the elite dot builders should dominate the non-elite. All MMOs are meritocracies, this one should be no different.

Originally posted by TaySC
If 4 doesn't work, then do 6..... but I agree that something needs to be done now.

Originally posted by merenoise
Originally posted by Ken1

This is the key to where I disagree with you. I'm thinking more of players than of teams here, but I think that there should be enough Pro teams that virtually all of a "class" of players get to play in Pro for a while. No one should have to spend their plateau in a D League or just retire in plateau (as opposed to during decline), not with the real money we put into the players.


That is where we disagree. Everyone paying money to play is immaterial to the issue at hand. Everyone pays to play poker, the stronger players commonly end up with the weaker players money.

In poker games in people's houses no one pays to play: Players gamble their money against each other, in the hope of winning money. I've played at such poker games and I'm sure I will again.

Here someone pays for a player, to create plus boosts plus CE, and deserves to see him play in Pro. There must never be a player surplus anywhere in the game. Everyone who wants a human team should have one. Too much of a player shortage is problematic as well, and is why I said that as a temporary thing I'd be okay with lowering the leagues to 6, but only if it's temporary (assuming the bigger cohorts stay significantly bigger as they are now)..

Originally posted by merenoise
imo not everyone should be able to easily make the Pro leagues.

So you want GLB to take money from people for players and then deny them entry into the Pros. That's just mean-spirited.

Originally posted by merenoise
Originally posted by TaySC

If 4 doesn't work, then do 6..... but I agree that something needs to be done now.





6 is okay with me, as long as it can return to 8 if the classes hold up.