Warrior General Games

I'll just assume that what I was saying wasn't clear.

You propose that you can leave speed low (by low I mean 90, that's what you consistently profess as the ideal) and have skills like vision and super vision (these I honestly don't believe have anything to do with acceleration or top speed in their pure values) and agility, and SDC compensate for that lack of speed.
What I'm saying is: Yes, you will raise those values. You need (imo) vision, super vision, SDC and especially agility to be successful; BUT that you should not base your level of investment into those attributes upon compensation for low speed.

If you can make the case that for example 5 SDC is enough to supplement a low speed value to a more appropriate output (faster and sufficient acceleration/top speed) versus taking it all the way to 10 then you've made your case - that essentially 90 speed is not so slow that you draw much of anything
but if you're relying on SDC, agility, vision and super vision to do the job for you, then you need the values of those respective attributes to be at some par or minimum, and in that case what is the minimum?
How much agility, SDC, SV and vision do you need to make 90 speed "the best"?
And how could you argue someone having the same agility, SDC, SV and vision as a 90 speed guy but he also having 100 speed? That would make him a better cover.

1. SDC and agility aren't invested into because they compensate for lower speed, they have their own unique value, one part of which is to make a corner that at 90 speed can keep up with any speed wr. I never said you should base your investment in those skills upon compensation for low speed. The previous poster claimed that 95 speed isn't enough because a 95 speed cb couldn't keep up with a wr. I made the argument that it wasn't a lack of speed, but the total suckiness of the build that caused the cb not to be able to keep up. A cb could have 200 speed, but won't be able to keep up with a wr if he only has 20 agility and vision and no SAs.

2. 90 speed doesn't make a cb the best, it is just the best speed for a cb to be at with the proper balance of his other attributes. By taking 90 speed to 100, you are either using sps or EQ that could go elsewhere. Balancing the use of your sps between all of the possible attributes is the way to make an elite cb. You have the choice of taking speed from 90 to 100 or keeping at 90 and building a cb that can still keep up with any wr and have a bunch of other necessary attributes.

3. I have yet to see a cb with 100 speed that has the same agility, vision, SDC, SV, SB, confidence, stamina, etc. that are required to make a really elite cb. And even assuming it is possible, the 100 speed guy will only be a better cover if there is a significant difference between 90 and 100 speed. Instead of seeing two cbs with the same SDC, SB, SV, etc. and speed differing at 90 and 100, you're more likely to see a cb with 90 speed and 9+ SDC vs. a cb with 100 speed and 5 SDC.

I think the best idea is to look at the other values:
SDC, SV, Vision, Agility, tackling, jumping, catching
everything valuable aside from speed

project what you want those to be at by say.. 48
and calculate how much you have left for speed.

I don't think the SP are in such short order.

As for your second point, you say a 90 speed cb can "still keep up with any wr"
I just don't see it. Even with 10 SDC and enough agility it doesn't seem like enough.
I mean.. I see WRs with 115 speed and 80 agility everywhere. The best of the best speedsters have 125 speed, 80-85 agility and still manage to catch the ball in stride. I can't see anything except a 105 or 110 speed 80-90 agility cb covering that, and even that is with the help of SAs and VAs considering those speedsters also have first step high as a staple.

Originally posted by Daddy Warbucks

I think the best idea is to look at the other values:
SDC, SV, Vision, Agility, tackling, jumping, catching
everything valuable aside from speed

project what you want those to be at by say.. 48
and calculate how much you have left for speed.

I don't think the SP are in such short order.

As for your second point, you say a 90 speed cb can "still keep up with any wr"
I just don't see it. Even with 10 SDC and enough agility it doesn't seem like enough.
I mean.. I see WRs with 115 speed and 80 agility everywhere. The best of the best speedsters have 125 speed, 80-85 agility and still manage to catch the ball in stride. I can't see anything except a 105 or 110 speed 80-90 agility cb covering that, and even that is with the help of SAs and VAs considering those speedsters also have first step high as a staple.

Whether it's logical, that's the way the game has worked for the past 8 seasons, and I don't see Bort making a change now, especially after the huge thread towards the end of last season with all the wrs bitching and Bort essentially saying that the game is working as intended. I think the mistake you might be making, and the one that the wrs were making, is thinking that going from 10-20 is the same as going from 90-100. Although 10 speed = 10 speed, in the first instance you are doubling your speed, in the second you are only increasing it around 10%. Although this isn't certain, I think that taking SDC to 10 will gives a bonus to your speed of at least 10%. In addition to that you get the agility bonus and bonus to your PD roll. The question is whether, all other things being equal (not likely, but we will assume they are), you should take speed 10 higher or take SDC to base 9 (or whatever base it takes to get there with AEQ).

At level 56 you get 38 EQ points. That means to get 100 speed/90 agility, you need to have about 78 base speed and 74 base agility. To do this you would need to take speed straight to 73, train over, and take advantage of the auto-level gains (though this still might not get you to 78) then take agility to 73 and train over. The alternative is to take speed to 68 and agility to 68, which with auto-level gains and training over will get you to about 75 and 72. The sps saved by going to 68 and 68 instead of 73 and 73 is 40-48. You can take those 40 sps and put them into SO and SDC and get them to 5-8 base.

I'm sure my math is off a little, but that means you essentially have the choice between 100/90 speed/agility with 1 in SO and SDC, and 90/90 speed/agility with 6 in SO and 9 in SDC for the same cost in sps. I prefer the latter for my cbs.

Sorry for the tl;dr post.

Originally posted by Seleni
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=698361&pbp_id=2891414

OK here is a CB (LVL 43) with 94/75 speed, he got toasted.

You need more speed then 95...


You need more confidence than 18 tbh

Originally posted by Longhornfan1024


At level 56 you get 38 EQ points. That means to get 100 speed/90 agility, you need to have about 78 base speed and 74 base agility. To do this you would need to take speed straight to 73, train over, and take advantage of the auto-level gains (though this still might not get you to 78) then take agility to 73 and train over. The alternative is to take speed to 68 and agility to 68, which with auto-level gains and training over will get you to about 75 and 72. The sps saved by going to 68 and 68 instead of 73 and 73 is 40-48. You can take those 40 sps and put them into SO and SDC and get them to 5-8 base.

I'm sure my math is off a little, but that means you essentially have the choice between 100/90 speed/agility with 1 in SO and SDC, and 90/90 speed/agility with 6 in SO and 9 in SDC for the same cost in sps. I prefer the latter for my cbs.

Sorry for the tl;dr post.

At level 56 I'll have 101 speed 85 agility 10 CDC 5 in QC 60 jumping, 66 or 67 vision 7 in SV and he is far from slow build/cap built. I built him to play early in 13 cap leagues back in season 4 way before I knew how to cap build. Knowing what I know now, it would be fairly easy to build a 100 speed 90 agility guy by 56 and still have relatively the same other attributes.

And 90 speed isn't enough. Your a GM of a WL team, how many of those corners have just 90 speed?

SPeed for a CB is like speed for any other position, you can never have too much.

Originally posted by Ilok
At level 56 I'll have 101 speed 85 agility 10 CDC 5 in QC 60 jumping, 66 or 67 vision 7 in SV and he is far from slow build/cap built. I built him to play early in 13 cap leagues back in season 4 way before I knew how to cap build. Knowing what I know now, it would be fairly easy to build a 100 speed 90 agility guy by 56 and still have relatively the same other attributes.

And 90 speed isn't enough. Your a GM of a WL team, how many of those corners have just 90 speed?

What are his stamina, confidence, swat ball, catching, and strength? You'll also need more SV and Vision to compete in WL.

As for WL corners. I have three corners and two teams and GM a third. I've also been a GM for numerous other Pro teams, so I've seen a lot of corners in the top leagues of the games. The corners who always do well and are always on the winning teams rarely have more than 90 speed, never more than 100. They do have a lot higher "other" abilities than the 100+ speed corners that can't hack it at the top.

Physical Attributes
Strength: 27.46
Speed: 100.48
Agility: 79.71
Jumping: 50.5
Stamina: 47.78
Vision: 65.5
Confidence: 40.46

Football Skills
Blocking: 10
Catching: 50.5
Tackling: 34.57
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 19.46
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8

Special Abilities
Shutdown Corner Abilities
Swat Ball: 3
Sticky Hands: 5
Superior Vision: 7
Smooth Operator: 5
Shutdown Coverage: 10

Speedster Abilities
First Step: 4
Change Direction: 5
Return Specialist: 0
Blitz: 0
Closing Speed: 0

Veteran Abilities
Ball Hawk: 15
Long Reach: 15
Motivational Speaker: 2
Showboat: 2

Originally posted by Ilok
Physical Attributes
Strength: 27.46
Speed: 100.48
Agility: 79.71
Jumping: 50.5
Stamina: 47.78
Vision: 65.5
Confidence: 40.46

Football Skills
Blocking: 10
Catching: 50.5
Tackling: 34.57
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 19.46
Kicking: 8
Punting: 8

Special Abilities
Shutdown Corner Abilities
Swat Ball: 3
Sticky Hands: 5
Superior Vision: 7
Smooth Operator: 5
Shutdown Coverage: 10

Speedster Abilities
First Step: 4
Change Direction: 5
Return Specialist: 0
Blitz: 0
Closing Speed: 0

Veteran Abilities
Ball Hawk: 15
Long Reach: 15
Motivational Speaker: 2
Showboat: 2


You're missing out in a lot of areas that are really needed in Pro/WL. That's pretty much what I was saying with a 100/90 cb not being able to have his "other" attributes at the point they need to be and where a 90/90 cb can have them. Had you not invested those extra sps into speed, you could have capped confidence, 90ish agility, 68 vision, 10 supervision, higher swat ball, or any number of other attributes that would help more than taking speed from 90-100.

There also might be the problem of us having a different idea of what the other attributes should be at level 56. My goal is always 90/90/70/55/48/48 spd/agi/vis/jmp/con/stm with 7-X-10-X-10/2-4 in SAs. Ideally, SB would already be around 9 then. Which of those areas do you think should be lower so that you can get speed higher?

Originally posted by Longhornfan1024
You're missing out in a lot of areas that are really needed in Pro/WL. That's pretty much what I was saying with a 100/90 cb not being able to have his "other" attributes at the point they need to be and where a 90/90 cb can have them. Had you not invested those extra sps into speed, you could have capped confidence, 90ish agility, 68 vision, 10 supervision, higher swat ball, or any number of other attributes that would help more than taking speed from 90-100.

There also might be the problem of us having a different idea of what the other attributes should be at level 56. My goal is always 90/90/70/55/48/48 spd/agi/vis/jmp/con/stm with 7-X-10-X-10/2-4 in SAs. Ideally, SB would already be around 9 then. Which of those areas do you think should be lower so that you can get speed higher?


I think your a little hard on him here...not many lev 56s are ready for the world league. The question is where will he be around lev 60. It is entirely reasonable to think he could have 7 in swat ball, 9 in SV, and confidence and stamina both capped along with a couple more points of jumping and strength at lev 61. Granted jumping and vision will both be a little low & also think that his speed is a bit out of balance with his agiliy/CD, so he'll have a bit of trouble playing under control. I'd have probably preferred him with a couple points less speed and another point of CD and swat ball/jumping.

I am a fan of different CB builds, since it makes it harder for WRs to counter any one type of CB build.

Originally posted by merk
I think your a little hard on him here...not many lev 56s are ready for the world league. The question is where will he be around lev 60. It is entirely reasonable to think he could have 7 in swat ball, 9 in SV, and confidence and stamina both capped along with a couple more points of jumping and strength at lev 61. Granted jumping and vision will both be a little low & also think that his speed is a bit out of balance with his agiliy/CD, so he'll have a bit of trouble playing under control. I'd have probably preferred him with a couple points less speed and another point of CD and swat ball/jumping.

I am a fan of different CB builds, since it makes it harder for WRs to counter any one type of CB build.

I think you're taking the wrong point from my post. The point wasn't that he wouldn't be ready for WL, the point is that he was sacrificing a lot of other important areas just to get speed 10 higher.

As for different cb builds, the problem with that is that wrs don't have to be able to counter any one type of cb build, the pressure is on cbs to be able to counter every type of wr build.

Originally posted by mmuhr
90/85 or 95/80 if you really wanna be fast. Those that go to 100 are jokes.

not true at all, depends on level of competition and defensive scheme.

I have two pieces of custom, one +6 Speed, one +6 AGI, and I prefer the speed. My big CB would have about equal SPD/AGI with the agility piece.

I used the agility piece all year last year and found that on crossing or in routes, my CB would be right on top of the WR through the cut, but then get out run and give up the pass anyway once straight line speed kicked in. I'd also still get beat by guys with 10 FS and 115 speed off the line too. Your DC can help with that a little bit, but I'd rather be able to keep up anyway. On a vertical route without any QB pressure, that WR is going to hit top speed and get a step on you. On a 5 WR streak route, first step is going to put him right in your lap instantly, even with a deep cushion.

That's just my $0.02

Originally posted by Longhornfan1024

As for different cb builds, the problem with that is that wrs don't have to be able to counter any one type of cb build, the pressure is on cbs to be able to counter every type of wr build.

This.