Yea or Nay. Asking for an agent. 
Forum > FAQ's, Player Guides and Newbie Help > BALL HAWK for WRs
Maul Rat
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Bort said he's working on a remote control ball that will change the speed and trajectory of the ball mid flight so that this actually works on both sides of the ball as described.
Originally posted by RyanCane26
Nay
This. Too many other (better) quality VA's out there for receivers.
Nay
This. Too many other (better) quality VA's out there for receivers.
TJ Spikes
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I was going to sit this one out but...
For starters we all know the old Bort quote from LHF
Originally posted by Bort January 22, 2012
Question~~ What exactly goes into the interception routine? What makes a QB decide to throw a pass that could be intercepted (vision? Morale? Tactical Settings?)? What if anything does the receiver do to make an interception more or less likely (route tactics, vision, agility?)? What does a defender do to make an interception more or less likely (positioning at hike, if so where is best where is worst)? Thinking more here about the set up that brings about an interception check more than the interception check itself, assuming that there is such a set up and its not all one big routine done when a pass is called?
Answer~~ It is fairly complicated as there are lots of situations, but the general gist is (if I'm the cb):
Step #1 - I have to see the ball is coming in the first place (vision check)
Step #2 - I have to get into position near enough the the ball to interact with it (speed/agility etc)
Step #3 - I have to check if I am even going to get a chance to interact with the ball (Int check? No? Swat check instead?)
Step #4 - If I'm near the WR, I have to fight with him to see who gets a chance at the ball (my roll vs his roll) - If I win, I get to intercept or swat the ball. (depends on first roll type that succeeded, and if the WR gives me trouble catching it) - If I lose, the receiver gets to try and catch the ball. It's all up to him now, though my being close by makes it harder on him.
Step #5 - If the receiver fails to catch the ball, I get once more chance to try and intercept it if I am close enough.
Step #6 - If the receiver catches it, now I've got to tackle him. Here's my chance to knock it loose with a good hit
You can see the first 4 steps play out on this play
1- CB1 Sees the ball coming
2- He moves into the position - the exact spot where the ball is going to land, and then stops
3- He passes a DEF roll
4- He beats the WR on the go first roll
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3122237&pbp_id=298368
What Ballhawk would do for the WR in this case, would be to "fast forward" the WR to the spot where the ball is going to land (like the CB does), with the Speed and Agility boost, and it would give him a bonus to the "go first" roll.
There's basically 2 ways to build a WR. The most common and successful is to build a Speed/Fake based WR that doesn't get to the fourth step. They live and die on that step 3 catch roll while open.
The second way, is to build a WR that doesn't rely on being open to make catches. If you're building a WR in an attempt to win the "go first" roll, the Ballhawk is probably the best VA. It's always on, on every down, and isn't restricted to short 8 yards routes.
I don't think there's been a great one of the 2nd kind since Johnny Keys with Bhall and WISE like 60 seasons ago. It is possible to do, but there's not many OCs out that that could stomach a WR with like 110 Speed.
If you stacked the Ballhawk 15% Vision, with the Slot Machine 15% Vision, on a WR with say 80 Vision, that gets you up into the triple digits, which is competitive with where most CBs end up with their total Vision.
For starters we all know the old Bort quote from LHF
Originally posted by Bort January 22, 2012
Question~~ What exactly goes into the interception routine? What makes a QB decide to throw a pass that could be intercepted (vision? Morale? Tactical Settings?)? What if anything does the receiver do to make an interception more or less likely (route tactics, vision, agility?)? What does a defender do to make an interception more or less likely (positioning at hike, if so where is best where is worst)? Thinking more here about the set up that brings about an interception check more than the interception check itself, assuming that there is such a set up and its not all one big routine done when a pass is called?
Answer~~ It is fairly complicated as there are lots of situations, but the general gist is (if I'm the cb):
Step #1 - I have to see the ball is coming in the first place (vision check)
Step #2 - I have to get into position near enough the the ball to interact with it (speed/agility etc)
Step #3 - I have to check if I am even going to get a chance to interact with the ball (Int check? No? Swat check instead?)
Step #4 - If I'm near the WR, I have to fight with him to see who gets a chance at the ball (my roll vs his roll) - If I win, I get to intercept or swat the ball. (depends on first roll type that succeeded, and if the WR gives me trouble catching it) - If I lose, the receiver gets to try and catch the ball. It's all up to him now, though my being close by makes it harder on him.
Step #5 - If the receiver fails to catch the ball, I get once more chance to try and intercept it if I am close enough.
Step #6 - If the receiver catches it, now I've got to tackle him. Here's my chance to knock it loose with a good hit
You can see the first 4 steps play out on this play
1- CB1 Sees the ball coming
2- He moves into the position - the exact spot where the ball is going to land, and then stops
3- He passes a DEF roll
4- He beats the WR on the go first roll
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=3122237&pbp_id=298368
What Ballhawk would do for the WR in this case, would be to "fast forward" the WR to the spot where the ball is going to land (like the CB does), with the Speed and Agility boost, and it would give him a bonus to the "go first" roll.
There's basically 2 ways to build a WR. The most common and successful is to build a Speed/Fake based WR that doesn't get to the fourth step. They live and die on that step 3 catch roll while open.
The second way, is to build a WR that doesn't rely on being open to make catches. If you're building a WR in an attempt to win the "go first" roll, the Ballhawk is probably the best VA. It's always on, on every down, and isn't restricted to short 8 yards routes.
I don't think there's been a great one of the 2nd kind since Johnny Keys with Bhall and WISE like 60 seasons ago. It is possible to do, but there's not many OCs out that that could stomach a WR with like 110 Speed.
If you stacked the Ballhawk 15% Vision, with the Slot Machine 15% Vision, on a WR with say 80 Vision, that gets you up into the triple digits, which is competitive with where most CBs end up with their total Vision.
Edited by TJ Spikes on Feb 11, 2023 21:31:14
WiSeIVIaN
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Fwiw I'm not a fan of ballhawk on any WRs.
True the vision boost could help, but vision is the 3rd most weighted attribute in the catch vs pd battle roll (or anti-pd battle roll as I like to call it). I think it's a fairly distant 3rd after catching and jumping.
Main problem with ballhawk on offense is if a pass has high pass quality and is accurate, you don't get to use the spd/agi boost on offense since the QB didn't get to include the ballhawk bonus in their WR leading. And when balls have low pass quality / inaccurate, the odds are greatly stacked against any WR getting to the ball and being able to beat the defenders PD roll.
True the vision boost could help, but vision is the 3rd most weighted attribute in the catch vs pd battle roll (or anti-pd battle roll as I like to call it). I think it's a fairly distant 3rd after catching and jumping.
Main problem with ballhawk on offense is if a pass has high pass quality and is accurate, you don't get to use the spd/agi boost on offense since the QB didn't get to include the ballhawk bonus in their WR leading. And when balls have low pass quality / inaccurate, the odds are greatly stacked against any WR getting to the ball and being able to beat the defenders PD roll.
TJ Spikes
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Originally posted by F00tballJunkie
So is this a Yea from you?
No. Not until someone figures out Possession WRs, or the sim gets adjusted.
It's too hard to make Possession WRs work. It kind of drives me crazy that every LFP thread still lists Possession WRs on the roster. 99% of possession WRs are just worse versions of speedster WRs.
There's a very specific reason why the Possession archetype gets a major in Jump and the Speedster doesn't.
There's just not enough SPs in a build to get Jump Catch Vision Speed and Agility all into the 80s and 90s
Then you split EQ between Speed and Catch, and it takes a rocket scientist to force targets to the WR, because of how Bort coded QB targeting priority.
So is this a Yea from you?
No. Not until someone figures out Possession WRs, or the sim gets adjusted.
It's too hard to make Possession WRs work. It kind of drives me crazy that every LFP thread still lists Possession WRs on the roster. 99% of possession WRs are just worse versions of speedster WRs.
There's a very specific reason why the Possession archetype gets a major in Jump and the Speedster doesn't.
There's just not enough SPs in a build to get Jump Catch Vision Speed and Agility all into the 80s and 90s
Then you split EQ between Speed and Catch, and it takes a rocket scientist to force targets to the WR, because of how Bort coded QB targeting priority.
RyanCane26
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https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/stats.pl?season=94&stat_type=raw&league_id=280&conference_id=0&stat=receiving&playoffs=0
Top 4 WRs were Possession type with 800 yds+ fwiw
Top 4 WRs were Possession type with 800 yds+ fwiw
TJ Spikes
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Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Fwiw I'm not a fan of ballhawk on any WRs.
True the vision boost could help, but vision is the 3rd most weighted attribute in the catch vs pd battle roll (or anti-pd battle roll as I like to call it). I think it's a fairly distant 3rd after catching and jumping.
Main problem with ballhawk on offense is if a pass has high pass quality and is accurate, you don't get to use the spd/agi boost on offense since the QB didn't get to include the ballhawk bonus in their WR leading. And when balls have low pass quality / inaccurate, the odds are greatly stacked against any WR getting to the ball and being able to beat the defenders PD roll.
I get what you're saying. I don't disagree. I'm sure your talking about the later follow up from the Q&A
Originally posted by Bort July 29, 2011
Question~~ In this cb vs WR roll (step 4), does Jumping always come into play for the WR like it does for the cb (step 2/3)? or Is WR jumping only for "special" catches like high throws or diving catches? Has the above information been changed or updated since it was posted? Can you elaborate on the WR vs cb roll at all? At the very least, is it logical given real life pass interference rules, or do players actually fight for the ball?
Answer~~ The interaction is still the same. It's pretty much that whoever has the highest "get the ball" roll gets to act first. This includes your vision, jumping, catching, strength attributes, and catch/swat SA's/VAs/pcts. Jumping improves the WR catch roll for all catches, but much more so for jumping/diving catches.
+++
I think of this as a contested roll. As a WR, you'd want as much Catching as you can get without hurting the rest of the build (for this anti-PD, and catch radius, and also making the actual catch roll in the other step) more Jumping than the CB, and more Vision than the CB, and some Strength wouldn't hurt either if you could squeeze in a cap at the end or something.
As far as the position thing goes...
Fwiw, no data or quotes to back this up, I believe that when the CB gets to that "arrival" spot first, they get an advantage to that "get ball first" first roll (I think that's what you mean by anti-PD) I believe that if the WR did the same, it would take away that advantage.
Fwiw I'm not a fan of ballhawk on any WRs.
True the vision boost could help, but vision is the 3rd most weighted attribute in the catch vs pd battle roll (or anti-pd battle roll as I like to call it). I think it's a fairly distant 3rd after catching and jumping.
Main problem with ballhawk on offense is if a pass has high pass quality and is accurate, you don't get to use the spd/agi boost on offense since the QB didn't get to include the ballhawk bonus in their WR leading. And when balls have low pass quality / inaccurate, the odds are greatly stacked against any WR getting to the ball and being able to beat the defenders PD roll.
I get what you're saying. I don't disagree. I'm sure your talking about the later follow up from the Q&A
Originally posted by Bort July 29, 2011
Question~~ In this cb vs WR roll (step 4), does Jumping always come into play for the WR like it does for the cb (step 2/3)? or Is WR jumping only for "special" catches like high throws or diving catches? Has the above information been changed or updated since it was posted? Can you elaborate on the WR vs cb roll at all? At the very least, is it logical given real life pass interference rules, or do players actually fight for the ball?
Answer~~ The interaction is still the same. It's pretty much that whoever has the highest "get the ball" roll gets to act first. This includes your vision, jumping, catching, strength attributes, and catch/swat SA's/VAs/pcts. Jumping improves the WR catch roll for all catches, but much more so for jumping/diving catches.
+++
I think of this as a contested roll. As a WR, you'd want as much Catching as you can get without hurting the rest of the build (for this anti-PD, and catch radius, and also making the actual catch roll in the other step) more Jumping than the CB, and more Vision than the CB, and some Strength wouldn't hurt either if you could squeeze in a cap at the end or something.
As far as the position thing goes...
Fwiw, no data or quotes to back this up, I believe that when the CB gets to that "arrival" spot first, they get an advantage to that "get ball first" first roll (I think that's what you mean by anti-PD) I believe that if the WR did the same, it would take away that advantage.
TJ Spikes
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Originally posted by RyanCane26
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/stats.pl?season=94&stat_type=raw&league_id=280&conference_id=0&stat=receiving&playoffs=0
Top 4 WRs were Possession type with 800 yds+ fwiw
2 of those have open builds, not sure if that's on purpose. I don't know cupcake.
But for general discussion purposes, the top 3 attributes are Speed, Agility and Catching all in the general mid 80s/90s range. EQ is split approximately evenly between Speed and Catching.
Vision, Jumping, Stam, Carry are all within 3 points of each other.
Mathematically, that build would have been better from the Speedster Arch. HOWEVER.... The key difference is there's a heavy investment in the Green SAs. Which must justify the math losses--But there's a significant investment in a red SA also, which walks some of that back.
That build could have just as easily come from the Power archetype if you're going to throw out the Speed major anyway.
There's 1 maybe 2 VAs that should only be taken as requested by the OC. Not to mention that we're talking about WL, where only the best OCs in the game are.
And the top 3 of those 4 are all built by cupcake who is obviously a great dot builder.
So yeah, apparently there's a couple of builders who when working with the best OCs in the game that can make Possession WRs . I stand somewhat corrected.
https://glb.warriorgeneral.com/game/stats.pl?season=94&stat_type=raw&league_id=280&conference_id=0&stat=receiving&playoffs=0
Top 4 WRs were Possession type with 800 yds+ fwiw
2 of those have open builds, not sure if that's on purpose. I don't know cupcake.
But for general discussion purposes, the top 3 attributes are Speed, Agility and Catching all in the general mid 80s/90s range. EQ is split approximately evenly between Speed and Catching.
Vision, Jumping, Stam, Carry are all within 3 points of each other.
Mathematically, that build would have been better from the Speedster Arch. HOWEVER.... The key difference is there's a heavy investment in the Green SAs. Which must justify the math losses--But there's a significant investment in a red SA also, which walks some of that back.
That build could have just as easily come from the Power archetype if you're going to throw out the Speed major anyway.
There's 1 maybe 2 VAs that should only be taken as requested by the OC. Not to mention that we're talking about WL, where only the best OCs in the game are.
And the top 3 of those 4 are all built by cupcake who is obviously a great dot builder.
So yeah, apparently there's a couple of builders who when working with the best OCs in the game that can make Possession WRs . I stand somewhat corrected.
Edited by TJ Spikes on Feb 12, 2023 09:31:08
TJ Spikes
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Now I'm curious. I might actually sit down in front of a computer with the VPB today.
Ballhawk has it's place for a WR but that place isn't anything I would recommend. I know because I tried it. Yes... it works great with a WR that has HIGH Agility (must be at least 95... mine were 98-100)... then uses 'Creative Route Running'. Not a lot of YAC but I saw a decent uptic in catches (%-wise). However... Creative route running doesn't work all that well with standard QB's (Pocket or Bomber) because they tend to be much more accurate with their throws... and yes, accurate QB's tend to nullify 'Creative Route Running'. Now... if you have a RQB that runs a simi-wildcat style offense (or run and shoot or whatever you wanna call it)... and he's your primary/only QB... then yeah... works REAL good. QB needs to throw or run... Receiver needs to find an open spot fast... QB ain't Mr. Johnny Accurate... so Ballhawk sees a lot of action and it does help.
Now... anyone wanna run a passing team with only RQB's and Possession WR's with high agility?
Now... anyone wanna run a passing team with only RQB's and Possession WR's with high agility?
F00tballJunkie
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Originally posted by Theo Wizzago
Ballhawk has it's place for a WR but that place isn't anything I would recommend. I know because I tried it. Yes... it works great with a WR that has HIGH Agility (must be at least 95... mine were 98-100)... then uses 'Creative Route Running'. Not a lot of YAC but I saw a decent uptic in catches (%-wise). However... Creative route running doesn't work all that well with standard QB's (Pocket or Bomber) because they tend to be much more accurate with their throws... and yes, accurate QB's tend to nullify 'Creative Route Running'. Now... if you have a RQB that runs a simi-wildcat style offense (or run and shoot or whatever you wanna call it)... and he's your primary/only QB... then yeah... works REAL good. QB needs to throw or run... Receiver needs to find an open spot fast... QB ain't Mr. Johnny Accurate... so Ballhawk sees a lot of action and it does help.
Now... anyone wanna run a passing team with only RQB's and Possession WR's with high agility?
If you can get Bort to allow more plays. Like bootleg passing, and flea flickers.
Ballhawk has it's place for a WR but that place isn't anything I would recommend. I know because I tried it. Yes... it works great with a WR that has HIGH Agility (must be at least 95... mine were 98-100)... then uses 'Creative Route Running'. Not a lot of YAC but I saw a decent uptic in catches (%-wise). However... Creative route running doesn't work all that well with standard QB's (Pocket or Bomber) because they tend to be much more accurate with their throws... and yes, accurate QB's tend to nullify 'Creative Route Running'. Now... if you have a RQB that runs a simi-wildcat style offense (or run and shoot or whatever you wanna call it)... and he's your primary/only QB... then yeah... works REAL good. QB needs to throw or run... Receiver needs to find an open spot fast... QB ain't Mr. Johnny Accurate... so Ballhawk sees a lot of action and it does help.
Now... anyone wanna run a passing team with only RQB's and Possession WR's with high agility?
If you can get Bort to allow more plays. Like bootleg passing, and flea flickers.
TJ Spikes
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For the record, last season I used EQ on a mid-level dot to get Vision up to 92+ and had Ballhawk bringing it to 102+ total. Had maybe the worst season I've had so far.
HOWEVER that's on a semi blocker WR that was a special request, so I haven't quite given up on it yet. Ballhawk isn't going fix a piss poor build. I'm not even sure it's writing as intended.
HOWEVER that's on a semi blocker WR that was a special request, so I haven't quite given up on it yet. Ballhawk isn't going fix a piss poor build. I'm not even sure it's writing as intended.
Edited by TJ Spikes on Feb 13, 2023 09:47:22
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