When should you start multi training
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El Retré
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Basic build plan for any .5 ALG dot
If going strength first then pick one pound below the maximum. If picking speed first then pick one pound above the minimum. Enhance the first attribute to 10%, train intense three times, enhance to 20%, then train intense until you have a nearly full bar at 32.9x. Convert 15 bonus tokens to a skill point and cap to 48.9x. Then boost. Next season you'll enhance to 30% and normal train, then second cap, then continue normal training, then third cap. At that point you'll unlock and enhance your attributes for multi-training. Unlock the first, second, and third attributes you plan to cap and enhance all to 30% when possible. Use the free first slot to rotate any other attributes you plan to cap eventually, enhancing each to 10%. Continue multi-training until the first attribute reaches anywhere between 90 and 100 depending upon your build plan. Skill points should be spent in the first attribute until it reaches between 73 and 85 depending upon your build plan and how many attributes you eventually need to increase.
If going strength first then pick one pound below the maximum. If picking speed first then pick one pound above the minimum. Enhance the first attribute to 10%, train intense three times, enhance to 20%, then train intense until you have a nearly full bar at 32.9x. Convert 15 bonus tokens to a skill point and cap to 48.9x. Then boost. Next season you'll enhance to 30% and normal train, then second cap, then continue normal training, then third cap. At that point you'll unlock and enhance your attributes for multi-training. Unlock the first, second, and third attributes you plan to cap and enhance all to 30% when possible. Use the free first slot to rotate any other attributes you plan to cap eventually, enhancing each to 10%. Continue multi-training until the first attribute reaches anywhere between 90 and 100 depending upon your build plan. Skill points should be spent in the first attribute until it reaches between 73 and 85 depending upon your build plan and how many attributes you eventually need to increase.
WiSeIVIaN
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hey dodson, I gave you access to star wars force forum, there's quite a few useful things stickyed including build advice/guides from quite a few top player builders.
I should make an intro-to-player building forum if I ever stop being lazy. (unlikely)
I should make an intro-to-player building forum if I ever stop being lazy. (unlikely)
Depends on your end-build expectations and how high you want to take your primary.
Novus
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Originally posted by El Retré
Basic build plan for any .5 ALG dot
If going strength first then pick one pound below the maximum. If picking speed first then pick one pound above the minimum. Enhance the first attribute to 10%, train intense three times, enhance to 20%, then train intense until you have a nearly full bar at 32.9x. Convert 15 bonus tokens to a skill point and cap to 48.9x. Then boost. Next season you'll enhance to 30% and normal train, then second cap, then continue normal training, then third cap. At that point you'll unlock and enhance your attributes for multi-training. Unlock the first, second, and third attributes you plan to cap and enhance all to 30% when possible. Use the free first slot to rotate any other attributes you plan to cap eventually, enhancing each to 10%. Continue multi-training until the first attribute reaches anywhere between 90 and 100 depending upon your build plan. Skill points should be spent in the first attribute until it reaches between 73 and 85 depending upon your build plan and how many attributes you eventually need to increase.
Originally posted by El Retré
That was for you Novus! and for dodson as well haha.
Heh.
That's a build plan that jdbolick put together a few months ago. Since he doesn't hang around in FAQ anymore, I like to post it in here when appropriate and give jdbolick the credit for it.
Basic build plan for any .5 ALG dot
If going strength first then pick one pound below the maximum. If picking speed first then pick one pound above the minimum. Enhance the first attribute to 10%, train intense three times, enhance to 20%, then train intense until you have a nearly full bar at 32.9x. Convert 15 bonus tokens to a skill point and cap to 48.9x. Then boost. Next season you'll enhance to 30% and normal train, then second cap, then continue normal training, then third cap. At that point you'll unlock and enhance your attributes for multi-training. Unlock the first, second, and third attributes you plan to cap and enhance all to 30% when possible. Use the free first slot to rotate any other attributes you plan to cap eventually, enhancing each to 10%. Continue multi-training until the first attribute reaches anywhere between 90 and 100 depending upon your build plan. Skill points should be spent in the first attribute until it reaches between 73 and 85 depending upon your build plan and how many attributes you eventually need to increase.
Originally posted by El Retré
That was for you Novus! and for dodson as well haha.
Heh.
That's a build plan that jdbolick put together a few months ago. Since he doesn't hang around in FAQ anymore, I like to post it in here when appropriate and give jdbolick the credit for it.
Ted Rock
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Do I unlock more secondary skills with some BT later or do I start intense training when first, second and third primary skills are where I want them?
Novus
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Originally posted by Ted Rock
Do I unlock more secondary skills with some BT later or do I start intense training when first, second and third primary skills are where I want them?
There's a couple of different schools of thought on that, but most of the smart people I've seen suggest continuing to unlock other skills and multi-training them in place of your first attribute, while still keeping your second, third and fourth attributes in your multi-training. There's also some debate on whether or not to enhance those later attributes... I usually 3-star the first 4 attributes but just 1-star the 5th attribute and anything beyond that. Some of the build gurus agree with me, which is where I got the idea, but other build gurus insist that's stupid and suggest different enhancement plans instead.
Do I unlock more secondary skills with some BT later or do I start intense training when first, second and third primary skills are where I want them?
There's a couple of different schools of thought on that, but most of the smart people I've seen suggest continuing to unlock other skills and multi-training them in place of your first attribute, while still keeping your second, third and fourth attributes in your multi-training. There's also some debate on whether or not to enhance those later attributes... I usually 3-star the first 4 attributes but just 1-star the 5th attribute and anything beyond that. Some of the build gurus agree with me, which is where I got the idea, but other build gurus insist that's stupid and suggest different enhancement plans instead.
WiSeIVIaN
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Imo, 3-star the big 3 (the 3 atty's you are unlocking multi train for, likely your top 3 attributes), and 1-star everything else you are gonna train.
You are rotating that 4th slot enough that past 1-star is a bad idea most of the time.
Originally posted by blackrock
Upgrades . . . . . Multi-trains needed to benefit
. . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
. . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
. . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45
. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60
. . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Keep in mind 15 multi trains is 60 days since each atty trains once every 4. You will at times be rotating out that 4th attribute slot quick enough that 1-star might not even be worth it, but 3-staring your first 3 and 1-staring the rest should be pretty safe and can't get you in too much trouble.
You are rotating that 4th slot enough that past 1-star is a bad idea most of the time.
Originally posted by blackrock
Upgrades . . . . . Multi-trains needed to benefit
. . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
. . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
. . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45
. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60
. . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Keep in mind 15 multi trains is 60 days since each atty trains once every 4. You will at times be rotating out that 4th attribute slot quick enough that 1-star might not even be worth it, but 3-staring your first 3 and 1-staring the rest should be pretty safe and can't get you in too much trouble.
Originally posted by WiSeIVIaN
Imo, 3-star the big 3 (the 3 atty's you are unlocking multi train for, likely your top 3 attributes), and 1-star everything else you are gonna train.
You are rotating that 4th slot enough that past 1-star is a bad idea most of the time.
Originally posted by blackrock
Upgrades . . . . . Multi-trains needed to benefit
. . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
. . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
. . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45
. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60
. . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Keep in mind 15 multi trains is 60 days since each atty trains once every 4. You will at times be rotating out that 4th attribute slot quick enough that 1-star might not even be worth it, but 3-staring your first 3 and 1-staring the rest should be pretty safe and can't get you in too much trouble.
has anyone like mandyross or JD looked at that payback?
15 multi trains to pay back 1 starring an attribute using 6 BT?
given this chart
https://sites.google.com/site/glbmandyross/training_hotspots
4 way multi-train difference between 0 and 1 starring is at least .05 SP and 6 BT = .4 SP it would seem 8 or fewer multi-trains would make this worthwhile
(look at the difference at the 48-cap - 0 star = .6 SP per train, 5 star = .9 SP per train, so .3 change after 5 star = .06 SP per star, as an example)
Imo, 3-star the big 3 (the 3 atty's you are unlocking multi train for, likely your top 3 attributes), and 1-star everything else you are gonna train.
You are rotating that 4th slot enough that past 1-star is a bad idea most of the time.
Originally posted by blackrock
Upgrades . . . . . Multi-trains needed to benefit
. . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
. . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
. . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45
. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60
. . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Keep in mind 15 multi trains is 60 days since each atty trains once every 4. You will at times be rotating out that 4th attribute slot quick enough that 1-star might not even be worth it, but 3-staring your first 3 and 1-staring the rest should be pretty safe and can't get you in too much trouble.
has anyone like mandyross or JD looked at that payback?
15 multi trains to pay back 1 starring an attribute using 6 BT?
given this chart
https://sites.google.com/site/glbmandyross/training_hotspots
4 way multi-train difference between 0 and 1 starring is at least .05 SP and 6 BT = .4 SP it would seem 8 or fewer multi-trains would make this worthwhile
(look at the difference at the 48-cap - 0 star = .6 SP per train, 5 star = .9 SP per train, so .3 change after 5 star = .06 SP per star, as an example)
Edited by reddogrw on Jun 10, 2013 19:06:13
Robbnva
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Originally posted by El Retré
Basic build plan for any .5 ALG dot
If going strength first then pick one pound below the maximum. If picking speed first then pick one pound above the minimum. Enhance the first attribute to 10%, train intense three times, enhance to 20%, then train intense until you have a nearly full bar at 32.9x. Convert 15 bonus tokens to a skill point and cap to 48.9x. Then boost. Next season you'll enhance to 30% and normal train, then second cap, then continue normal training, then third cap. At that point you'll unlock and enhance your attributes for multi-training. Unlock the first, second, and third attributes you plan to cap and enhance all to 30% when possible. Use the free first slot to rotate any other attributes you plan to cap eventually, enhancing each to 10%. Continue multi-training until the first attribute reaches anywhere between 90 and 100 depending upon your build plan. Skill points should be spent in the first attribute until it reaches between 73 and 85 depending upon your build plan and how many attributes you eventually need to increase.
novus's multi
Basic build plan for any .5 ALG dot
If going strength first then pick one pound below the maximum. If picking speed first then pick one pound above the minimum. Enhance the first attribute to 10%, train intense three times, enhance to 20%, then train intense until you have a nearly full bar at 32.9x. Convert 15 bonus tokens to a skill point and cap to 48.9x. Then boost. Next season you'll enhance to 30% and normal train, then second cap, then continue normal training, then third cap. At that point you'll unlock and enhance your attributes for multi-training. Unlock the first, second, and third attributes you plan to cap and enhance all to 30% when possible. Use the free first slot to rotate any other attributes you plan to cap eventually, enhancing each to 10%. Continue multi-training until the first attribute reaches anywhere between 90 and 100 depending upon your build plan. Skill points should be spent in the first attribute until it reaches between 73 and 85 depending upon your build plan and how many attributes you eventually need to increase.
novus's multi
WiSeIVIaN
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online
*Shrug* I believe he calculates the value of enhancing vs the value of using those BTs to multi-train further I'll PM black so he can come talk here...
Originally posted by blackrock
I posted a version of this in another forum, and thought it would be useful here. I did the following calculations to determine how many times you would need to multi-train an attribute to gain a benefit from each level of training upgrade. You can skip to the chart at the bottom if you're not interested in the math.
The following calculations look only to the multi-training portion of a build, and thus do not consider any non-multi-training issues at the beginning or end of a build. This will not affect most attributes, although there are some important exceptions.
First, define the average training return of a single multi-train as Y. In other words, Y is equal to the average increase in SP you will gain to a single attribute when multi-training. Second, define X as the number of times you will multi-train the attribute at issue.
The gross return from the first upgrade is [0.1Y * X]. The gross total return from the second upgrade is [0.2Y * X] and so on.
The cost of an upgrade is a certain number of BTs. But if you assume that you’re going to spend those BTs on extra multi-training (which most people do), you can also state the cost of an upgrade in terms of Y. Each single multi-train costs 3 BTs in comparison to training on light (that is, you get 24 bonus tokens training on light four times compared to 12 BTs for a multi-train, so a difference of 12 BTs per four training days). And on average, a light train gets you about 26% of a multi-train. (You can do the math yourself using the mandyross spreadsheet). Accordingly, the net gain from a single multi-train in comparison to light training is [Y - 0.26Y] or 0.74Y.
For the first enhancement, the 6 BT cost can be treated as 2 fewer days of multi-training, which is a cost of 1.48Y. The benefit of the first upgrade is [0.1Y * X]. We can then determine the net value of the upgrade (stated in terms of Y, that is, units of average SP value of a single multi-train) as [Y = 0.1X – 1.48]. Using this function, the first upgrade provides a net benefit if [X > 14.8]. In other words, the first upgrade is worth it if you multi-train an attribute at least 15 times because this will result in a positive value for Y.
You need 18 total BTs for the second upgrade, which is equal to six fewer days of multi-training, or 4.44Y. The function for the second upgrade is thus [Y = 0.2X - 4.44]. This means that the second upgrade provides a total net benefit if [X > 22.2] or if you multi-train at least 23 times. But, to realize a marginal benefit over the first upgrade, you need to find the point at which the second function intersects the first. That is, you need to solve for X when [0.2X – 4.44] = [0.1X – 1.48], which is [X = 29.6]. This means that the second upgrade is better than the first upgrade only if you are going to multi-train an attribute 30 times.
The function for the third upgrade [Y = 0.3X - 8.88]. It is better than the second upgrade where [0.3X – 8.88] > [0.2X – 4.44], or where [X > 44.4]. So the third upgrade requires 45 multi trains to produce a marginal benefit.
The fourth upgrade is [Y = 0.4X - 14.8]. It will realize a marginal benefit over third upgrade where [0.4X - 14.8] > [0.3X - 8.88], or where [X > 59.2]. This means that you would have to multi-train an attribute 60 times for the fourth upgrade to be worth it.
The fifth upgrade is [Y = 0.5X – 22.2]. It would provide a marginal benefit if [0.5X – 22.2] > [0.4X - 14.8], which is [X > 74]. That means you need to multi-train 75 times to gain a marginal benefit.
In addition to only considering multi-training, there is one other big caveat here. These calculations only reflect SP value benefits. Many builders are willing to sacrifice SP value to get their first and second attributes higher. But in terms of SP value, you can determine how many upgrades to buy as follows:
Upgrades . . . . . Multi-trains needed to benefit
. . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
. . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
. . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45
. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60
. . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
Originally posted by blackrock
I posted a version of this in another forum, and thought it would be useful here. I did the following calculations to determine how many times you would need to multi-train an attribute to gain a benefit from each level of training upgrade. You can skip to the chart at the bottom if you're not interested in the math.
The following calculations look only to the multi-training portion of a build, and thus do not consider any non-multi-training issues at the beginning or end of a build. This will not affect most attributes, although there are some important exceptions.
First, define the average training return of a single multi-train as Y. In other words, Y is equal to the average increase in SP you will gain to a single attribute when multi-training. Second, define X as the number of times you will multi-train the attribute at issue.
The gross return from the first upgrade is [0.1Y * X]. The gross total return from the second upgrade is [0.2Y * X] and so on.
The cost of an upgrade is a certain number of BTs. But if you assume that you’re going to spend those BTs on extra multi-training (which most people do), you can also state the cost of an upgrade in terms of Y. Each single multi-train costs 3 BTs in comparison to training on light (that is, you get 24 bonus tokens training on light four times compared to 12 BTs for a multi-train, so a difference of 12 BTs per four training days). And on average, a light train gets you about 26% of a multi-train. (You can do the math yourself using the mandyross spreadsheet). Accordingly, the net gain from a single multi-train in comparison to light training is [Y - 0.26Y] or 0.74Y.
For the first enhancement, the 6 BT cost can be treated as 2 fewer days of multi-training, which is a cost of 1.48Y. The benefit of the first upgrade is [0.1Y * X]. We can then determine the net value of the upgrade (stated in terms of Y, that is, units of average SP value of a single multi-train) as [Y = 0.1X – 1.48]. Using this function, the first upgrade provides a net benefit if [X > 14.8]. In other words, the first upgrade is worth it if you multi-train an attribute at least 15 times because this will result in a positive value for Y.
You need 18 total BTs for the second upgrade, which is equal to six fewer days of multi-training, or 4.44Y. The function for the second upgrade is thus [Y = 0.2X - 4.44]. This means that the second upgrade provides a total net benefit if [X > 22.2] or if you multi-train at least 23 times. But, to realize a marginal benefit over the first upgrade, you need to find the point at which the second function intersects the first. That is, you need to solve for X when [0.2X – 4.44] = [0.1X – 1.48], which is [X = 29.6]. This means that the second upgrade is better than the first upgrade only if you are going to multi-train an attribute 30 times.
The function for the third upgrade [Y = 0.3X - 8.88]. It is better than the second upgrade where [0.3X – 8.88] > [0.2X – 4.44], or where [X > 44.4]. So the third upgrade requires 45 multi trains to produce a marginal benefit.
The fourth upgrade is [Y = 0.4X - 14.8]. It will realize a marginal benefit over third upgrade where [0.4X - 14.8] > [0.3X - 8.88], or where [X > 59.2]. This means that you would have to multi-train an attribute 60 times for the fourth upgrade to be worth it.
The fifth upgrade is [Y = 0.5X – 22.2]. It would provide a marginal benefit if [0.5X – 22.2] > [0.4X - 14.8], which is [X > 74]. That means you need to multi-train 75 times to gain a marginal benefit.
In addition to only considering multi-training, there is one other big caveat here. These calculations only reflect SP value benefits. Many builders are willing to sacrifice SP value to get their first and second attributes higher. But in terms of SP value, you can determine how many upgrades to buy as follows:
Upgrades . . . . . Multi-trains needed to benefit
. . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
. . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
. . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 45
. . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60
. . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75
blackrock
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Originally posted by reddogrw
has anyone like mandyross or JD looked at that payback?
15 multi trains to pay back 1 starring an attribute using 6 BT?
given this chart
https://sites.google.com/site/glbmandyross/training_hotspots
4 way multi-train difference between 0 and 1 starring is at least .05 SP and 6 BT = .4 SP it would seem 8 or fewer multi-trains would make this worthwhile
(look at the difference at the 48-cap - 0 star = .6 SP per train, 5 star = .9 SP per train, so .3 change after 5 star = .06 SP per star, as an example)
6 BTs is only equal to .4 SP if you were to use those BTs to buy an SP. But most people "spend" BTs to do more multi-training. The calculations I did thus use the lost multi-training opportunities as the basis of determining the cost of an upgrade.
has anyone like mandyross or JD looked at that payback?
15 multi trains to pay back 1 starring an attribute using 6 BT?
given this chart
https://sites.google.com/site/glbmandyross/training_hotspots
4 way multi-train difference between 0 and 1 starring is at least .05 SP and 6 BT = .4 SP it would seem 8 or fewer multi-trains would make this worthwhile
(look at the difference at the 48-cap - 0 star = .6 SP per train, 5 star = .9 SP per train, so .3 change after 5 star = .06 SP per star, as an example)
6 BTs is only equal to .4 SP if you were to use those BTs to buy an SP. But most people "spend" BTs to do more multi-training. The calculations I did thus use the lost multi-training opportunities as the basis of determining the cost of an upgrade.
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