Warrior General Games

http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=2161549

I'm going to end up with 4 AEQ. Light training the rest of the way.

Should end up

149.5 strength
105 agility
86 speed
85 blocking
67 vision
61 stamina
61 confidence

10 FS
10 protect
10 cut block
5 foundation

21% HBC

you're gonna hate that first step

Originally posted by bug03
you're gonna hate that first step

I kind of like it actually
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1921993&pbp_id=8387
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=1921993&pbp_id=8396

1) Nice.
2) As you know, the bad reputation FS has appears to be unfounded when scrutinised in detail.
3) Relatively low blocking (< 90 before great blocker) at LOT does scare me a little though, although if any dot can get away with it it will probably be this one.
3) Why the run blocking archetype? Surely it would have been possible to mirror the build with agility <---> strength, distribute the equipment differently to get to the same end build, and have protector favoured? (I'm not advocating taking protect above 10 though!)

Originally posted by mandyross
2) As you know, the bad reputation FS has appears to be unfounded when scrutinised in detail.
Yeah, that's just completely nonsense. Of course First Step has some usefulness in the run game and on screens, but there's no question that it's a liability in pass protection on normal pass plays. Bort should set it so that it won't fire on the intial snap for OTs just as it already won't for Cs & Gs. He also needs to adjust how deeply the tackle drops period, since you get a similar but lesser effect from very high speed on OTs. When the LT drops so deeply, it greatly lessens the space between the block and the QB, both reducing the chance of reengaging and the QB's ability to get off a quick pass if the block is broken.

As for the blocking, it's a little bit higher than WiSeIVIaN's OT that absolutely got murdered in the WL by sacks and hurries, but you can't say that you haven't been warned about that. 18 sacks allowed. Pretty sure that's got to be some kind of record. In any case, you're just wrong for believing that low blocking doesn't hurt.

I wonder, have you got a statistical analysis of FS and pass blocking that shows it to be a liability, rather than just a bunch select plays taken from a sample over a hundred times greater? ( I just worry that the correlation is not as robust as you espouse, especially as there are still some WL LOTs out there who seem to do well with FS, not encountering the problems you mention.)

As for your blocking comment, if that was directed at me then you should read my post again before pounding at the keyboard.

Originally posted by jdbolick

Yeah, that's just completely nonsense. Of course First Step has some usefulness in the run game and on screens, but there's no question that it's a liability in pass protection on normal pass plays. Bort should set it so that it won't fire on the intial snap for OTs just as it already won't for Cs & Gs. He also needs to adjust how deeply the tackle drops period, since you get a similar but lesser effect from very high speed on OTs. When the LT drops so deeply, it greatly lessens the space between the block and the QB, both reducing the chance of reengaging and the QB's ability to get off a quick pass if the block is broken.

As for the blocking, it's a little bit higher than WiSeIVIaN's OT that absolutely got murdered in the WL by sacks and hurries, but you can't say that you haven't been warned about that. 18 sacks allowed. Pretty sure that's got to be some kind of record. In any case, you're just wrong for believing that low blocking doesn't hurt.

FS just shouldnt fire when going backwards. You dont see O-line guys EXPLODING backwards, they just try to mirror the defender(in real fb)

Originally posted by mandyross

3) Why the run blocking archetype? Surely it would have been possible to mirror the build with agility <---> strength, distribute the equipment differently to get to the same end build, and have protector favoured? (I'm not advocating taking protect above 10 though!)


Because I originally intended for him to be a ROT, but it is so hard to find a quality LOT, I decided to go ahead and convert him.

Originally posted by jdbolick

there's no question that it's a liability in pass protection on normal pass plays.

Originally posted by mandyross
I wonder, have you got a statistical analysis of FS and pass blocking that shows it to be a liability,

It looks odd at times, but from watching several sims that have LOTs with and without FS, I haven't found those that have FS to be giving up sacks any more frequently, and FS seems to be a bonus vs the blitz.

Originally posted by mandyross
I wonder, have you got a statistical analysis of FS and pass blocking that shows it to be a liability, rather than just a bunch select plays taken from a sample over a hundred times greater? ( I just worry that the correlation is not as robust as you espouse, especially as there are still some WL LOTs out there who seem to do well with FS, not encountering the problems you mention.)
It's called a brain, and yes I have one. It's a fact that OTs with First Step (and as noted, high speed to a lesser degree) drop back farther in pass protection than those without it. If you don't lose the block then it isn't a problem, but if you do lose the block then there is far less space to reengage or for the QB to get the pass away.


Originally posted by
As for your blocking comment, if that was directed at me then you should read my post again before pounding at the keyboard.
Of course it wasn't directed at you. Have I discussed low blocking on OTs with you? Good lord.

In all honesty, when a RDE has first step fire just right and first step fires just right for the LT, it is almost perfect. Unfortunately, most DCs are taking Strength guys with no jump the snap and they don't fire off the ball anymore, so when first step fires for the LT he's back by the qb and all the strength guy has to do is bulldoze the LT to get to the QB.

The reason it's just being noticed now is because before about 3 seasons ago, everybody had a 120 speed 120 agility guy on the weak side DE and it worked out well.

As for the run blocking arch at LT - I personally like it, especially with the strength DEs I just mentioned.

Yeah, plus Protector isn't anything special. It should really give a bonus directly to holding blocks instead of a bonus to the blocking attribute.

Originally posted by jdbolick
Originally posted by mandyross

I wonder, have you got a statistical analysis of FS and pass blocking that shows it to be a liability, rather than just a bunch select plays taken from a sample over a hundred times greater? ( I just worry that the correlation is not as robust as you espouse, especially as there are still some WL LOTs out there who seem to do well with FS, not encountering the problems you mention.)
It's called a brain, and yes I have one. It's a fact that OTs with First Step (and as noted, high speed to a lesser degree) drop back farther in pass protection than those without it. If you don't lose the block then it isn't a problem, but if you do lose the block then there is far less space to reengage or for the QB to get the pass away.


I just worry a little about your reasoning (or lack of). Brains are prone to self-delusion every now and again, it's an observable and documented trait. Statistically, for something to be called a fact requires a lot more analysis and reason to replace the "intuition". Stats don't lie (as long as they are done correctly).

But there's not much point turning this thread into a pissing match, lord knows there have been some terrible ones in the main forums recently. I think that we would both agree that it's a shame that the test server isn't cranking away for things like this, to control all other variables and run thousands of simulations to show the effect of a single SA, VA or attribute on the sim, to see if there is a problem beyond all reasonable doubt. It was very disappointing that your initial bug thread, which started the debate, was locked without this sort of consideration.

Originally posted by mandyross
it's an observable and documented trait.
Speaking of observable and documented things, I wonder if we have a bunch of replays showing that OTs with First Step drop back close to the QB. We do? Oh my goodness! Seriously, don't waste people's time arguing nonsense. If you wanted a statistical analysis of everything posted in the forums, no one could ever post. This is self-evident, so take your bias against me and stuff it deep down inside because no one besides you cares that I hurt your feelings once upon a time.

Originally posted by jdbolick

Speaking of observable and documented things, I wonder if we have a bunch of replays showing that OTs with First Step drop back close to the QB. We do? Oh my goodness! Seriously, don't waste people's time arguing nonsense. If you wanted a statistical analysis of everything posted in the forums, no one could ever post. This is self-evident, so take your bias against me and stuff it deep down inside because no one besides you cares that I hurt your feelings once upon a time.



ya, ive made many suggestions with replays tbh