Seems us older WR's that have SA's invested in the speedster tree with the addition of route run. Is probaly best not to pick an archetype. With the speedster archetype having a penalty to Route Run. Seems Power Archetype or none at all is the best route for us. Anyone else thought about this.
Djinnt
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I'd still take it if you have a good amount of first step and quick cut, and simply correct the amount of route running if you want it to behave like it would without the archetype
simply because if you do have say 9/9 or 10/9 or something in first step/quick cut (or even higher) then the bonus outweighs the penalty
also, a bonus over 10 is more valuable than a penalty beneath it, speaking in terms of purely the investment
simply because if you do have say 9/9 or 10/9 or something in first step/quick cut (or even higher) then the bonus outweighs the penalty
also, a bonus over 10 is more valuable than a penalty beneath it, speaking in terms of purely the investment
the hurricane
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Originally posted by Djinnt
I'd still take it if you have a good amount of first step and quick cut, and simply correct the amount of route running if you want it to behave like it would without the archetype
simply because if you do have say 9/9 or 10/9 or something in first step/quick cut (or even higher) then the bonus outweighs the penalty
also, a bonus over 10 is more valuable than a penalty beneath it, speaking in terms of purely the investment
you have no factual basis for any of these claims. In theory you may be right, but at the moment we don't know, plain and simple.
I'd still take it if you have a good amount of first step and quick cut, and simply correct the amount of route running if you want it to behave like it would without the archetype
simply because if you do have say 9/9 or 10/9 or something in first step/quick cut (or even higher) then the bonus outweighs the penalty
also, a bonus over 10 is more valuable than a penalty beneath it, speaking in terms of purely the investment
you have no factual basis for any of these claims. In theory you may be right, but at the moment we don't know, plain and simple.
jberniej
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yea, fortunately I only have 1 in route run and 2 in sticky hands, but I have 4 in first step and 4 in quick cut - hopefully it will suffice. I did choose an archtype (speedster). couldn't do anything about the pts in route run/sticky hands anyway. oh well.
we should have been able to remove them and apply them somewhere else if we wanted to.
we should have been able to remove them and apply them somewhere else if we wanted to.
Childish Gambino
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greatest part of archetypes --> not everyone has the exact same build anymore!
it's all preference.
I just ditched all my sticky hands AEQ to turn my player into a sole speedster.
it's all preference.
I just ditched all my sticky hands AEQ to turn my player into a sole speedster.
Djinnt
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Originally posted by the hurricane
you have no factual basis for any of these claims. In theory you may be right, but at the moment we don't know, plain and simple.
Uhh? Reading comprehension fail. Don't respond to my posts if you don't read them.
you have no factual basis for any of these claims. In theory you may be right, but at the moment we don't know, plain and simple.
Uhh? Reading comprehension fail. Don't respond to my posts if you don't read them.
MileHighShoes
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Originally posted by the hurricane
you have no factual basis for any of these claims. In theory you may be right, but at the moment we don't know, plain and simple.
there is one penalized SA (RR)
There are two SAs with bonuses (QC, and FS)
His logic makes sense. You can invest less in QC, and FS, and use half of the savings to correct for RR, and you save SP's because it's 2:1... it's pretty basic logic.
They said the bonuses vary across archetypes... implying that for each archetype the bonus and penalties are equal for that individual archetype. Of course we don't know what value to correct for, but the point of the post was that there are more SAs given bonuses then there are given penalties... regardless of the specifics he's still right.
you have no factual basis for any of these claims. In theory you may be right, but at the moment we don't know, plain and simple.
there is one penalized SA (RR)
There are two SAs with bonuses (QC, and FS)
His logic makes sense. You can invest less in QC, and FS, and use half of the savings to correct for RR, and you save SP's because it's 2:1... it's pretty basic logic.
They said the bonuses vary across archetypes... implying that for each archetype the bonus and penalties are equal for that individual archetype. Of course we don't know what value to correct for, but the point of the post was that there are more SAs given bonuses then there are given penalties... regardless of the specifics he's still right.
the hurricane
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Originally posted by Djinnt
simply because if you do have say 9/9 or 10/9 or something in first step/quick cut (or even higher) then the bonus outweighs the penalty
also, a bonus over 10 is more valuable than a penalty beneath it, speaking in terms of purely the investment
You are speculating. We know there are diminishing returns to SAs after 10 so how can you say for certain that the bonus will outweigh the penalty in scenarios other than where the player has 0 in both of their penalized SAs. For all we know, a player with 10/10 in the speedster SAs and 6/6 in the posession SAs will be net WORSE off for picking the speedster archetype. If we knew for a fact the rate of diminishing returns or if you had chosen a scenario that did not involve the diminishing returns, then you would have had more of a leg to stand on.
Originally posted by Djinnt
Uhh? Reading comprehension fail. Don't respond to my posts if you don't read them.
bite me
simply because if you do have say 9/9 or 10/9 or something in first step/quick cut (or even higher) then the bonus outweighs the penalty
also, a bonus over 10 is more valuable than a penalty beneath it, speaking in terms of purely the investment
You are speculating. We know there are diminishing returns to SAs after 10 so how can you say for certain that the bonus will outweigh the penalty in scenarios other than where the player has 0 in both of their penalized SAs. For all we know, a player with 10/10 in the speedster SAs and 6/6 in the posession SAs will be net WORSE off for picking the speedster archetype. If we knew for a fact the rate of diminishing returns or if you had chosen a scenario that did not involve the diminishing returns, then you would have had more of a leg to stand on.
Originally posted by Djinnt
Uhh? Reading comprehension fail. Don't respond to my posts if you don't read them.
bite me
Djinnt
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I was talking about investment, not returns. That's how I can do it. In terms of investment, SAs that are higher cost more to raise. It's simple math, not speculation of game mechanics, that's what you're missing. I don't go around telling everyone how the game works if I don't know. My advice here had nothing to do with game mechanics but the simple fact that an increase to two things is greater than a decrease to one thing.
Also, the bonus/penalty you get from archetypes is not the same as adding a point or losing a point. It's an increase or decrease to the effectiveness of the SA. Therefor what you know of diminishing returns to SAs does not apply to it. Saying that it does is speculation.
Also, the bonus/penalty you get from archetypes is not the same as adding a point or losing a point. It's an increase or decrease to the effectiveness of the SA. Therefor what you know of diminishing returns to SAs does not apply to it. Saying that it does is speculation.
the hurricane
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Originally posted by Catch22
6) The bonus and penalties to SA's are applied as a flat percentage increase to the SA. That percentage will not be revealed but it will be large enough to have a significant impact for that archetype. Just as an example, let's say the percentage is 20% and you are an Elusive Back who gets a bonus to Head Fake/Juke and a penalty to Lower Shoulder/Power Thru. If you have 10 in Head Fake, the bonus will make it in essence a 12 in Head Fake. If you have 10 in Power Through, the penalty will make it in essence a 8 in Power Through. Understand that the bonuses/penalties could vary in their percentage depending upon the archetype.
Don't post advice if you aren't even going to bother reading the information that is out there. The bonus/penalty from archetypes is a flat percentage increase to the SA itself NOTa flat percentage increase to the effectiveness of the SA.
Secondly, you said you'd still take the speedster archetype if you had a good amount of first step/quick cut (i.e. 9/9 or 10/9), which means:
a) you think the returns from this approach are greater than not picking an archetype or going power archetype (speculation with no factual basis).
b) you are uncertain whether the returns are greater, but attach false value to maximizing your investment indiscriminately (you give bad advice and spread misinformation because you value worthless things).
c) you think the returns from this approach are less than not picking an achetype or going power archetype, but choose the worst option regardless (you are masochistic or stupid).
d) you think the returns from this approach are less than not picking an archetype or going power archetype, but intentionally spread misinformation to hurt others and indirectly benefit yourself (you are a jerk).
I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed option a, but maybe I gave you too much credit...
6) The bonus and penalties to SA's are applied as a flat percentage increase to the SA. That percentage will not be revealed but it will be large enough to have a significant impact for that archetype. Just as an example, let's say the percentage is 20% and you are an Elusive Back who gets a bonus to Head Fake/Juke and a penalty to Lower Shoulder/Power Thru. If you have 10 in Head Fake, the bonus will make it in essence a 12 in Head Fake. If you have 10 in Power Through, the penalty will make it in essence a 8 in Power Through. Understand that the bonuses/penalties could vary in their percentage depending upon the archetype.
Don't post advice if you aren't even going to bother reading the information that is out there. The bonus/penalty from archetypes is a flat percentage increase to the SA itself NOTa flat percentage increase to the effectiveness of the SA.
Secondly, you said you'd still take the speedster archetype if you had a good amount of first step/quick cut (i.e. 9/9 or 10/9), which means:
a) you think the returns from this approach are greater than not picking an archetype or going power archetype (speculation with no factual basis).
b) you are uncertain whether the returns are greater, but attach false value to maximizing your investment indiscriminately (you give bad advice and spread misinformation because you value worthless things).
c) you think the returns from this approach are less than not picking an achetype or going power archetype, but choose the worst option regardless (you are masochistic or stupid).
d) you think the returns from this approach are less than not picking an archetype or going power archetype, but intentionally spread misinformation to hurt others and indirectly benefit yourself (you are a jerk).
I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed option a, but maybe I gave you too much credit...
Edited by the hurricane on Mar 22, 2010 12:57:25
MustangLife
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I went ahead and went with speedster archetype even though it had a route run penalty which doesn't make since to me. But oh well. I do have 4 in Route Run which prior to the archtype going in effect, I planned to invest to 10 in Route Run Since my First Step and Quick Cut are high. But now of course I'm not going to invest in RR but in Catch Fake which if anyone has seen in the test server is firing like crazy. Catch Fake might be the damn best SA for a WR in 15 seasons of GLB.
Josh
Josh
emmittrules
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Originally posted by MustangLife
I went ahead and went with speedster archetype even though it had a route run penalty which doesn't make since to me. But oh well. I do have 4 in Route Run which prior to the archtype going in effect, I planned to invest to 10 in Route Run Since my First Step and Quick Cut are high. But now of course I'm not going to invest in RR but in Catch Fake which if anyone has seen in the test server is firing like crazy. Catch Fake might be the damn best SA for a WR in 15 seasons of GLB.
Josh
Yep in the same boat... would be nice to be able to remove these penalties and put them into something favorable... but no... typical... just like some of the VAs - some are deemed to be good, great, decent or terrible - but you get stuck with it if you choose the wrong one -
I went ahead and went with speedster archetype even though it had a route run penalty which doesn't make since to me. But oh well. I do have 4 in Route Run which prior to the archtype going in effect, I planned to invest to 10 in Route Run Since my First Step and Quick Cut are high. But now of course I'm not going to invest in RR but in Catch Fake which if anyone has seen in the test server is firing like crazy. Catch Fake might be the damn best SA for a WR in 15 seasons of GLB.
Josh
Yep in the same boat... would be nice to be able to remove these penalties and put them into something favorable... but no... typical... just like some of the VAs - some are deemed to be good, great, decent or terrible - but you get stuck with it if you choose the wrong one -
Djinnt
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Originally posted by the hurricane
Don't post advice if you aren't even going to bother reading the information that is out there. The bonus/penalty from archetypes is a flat percentage increase to the SA itself NOTa flat percentage increase to the effectiveness of the SA.
Secondly, you said you'd still take the speedster archetype if you had a good amount of first step/quick cut (i.e. 9/9 or 10/9), which means:
a) you think the returns from this approach are greater than not picking an archetype or going power archetype (speculation with no factual basis).
b) you are uncertain whether the returns are greater, but attach false value to maximizing your investment indiscriminately (you give bad advice and spread misinformation because you value worthless things).
c) you think the returns from this approach are less than not picking an achetype or going power archetype, but choose the worst option regardless (you are masochistic or stupid).
d) you think the returns from this approach are less than not picking an archetype or going power archetype, but intentionally spread misinformation to hurt others and indirectly benefit yourself (you are a jerk).
I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed option a, but maybe I gave you too much credit...
I've already read your quote. It isn't stating anything in opposition to what I've posted.
It's surprising that you're hung up on the word effectiveness.
You can spare all of us your attempt at being a psychologist. What me saying I'd still pick the Speedster SA constitutes is exactly this and nothing more:
1. Speedsters benefit mostly from the SAs First Step and Quick Cut. This is my speculation.
2. Speedsters are receiving bonuses to those SAs. While they are also receiving penalties to route running and sticky hands, if a WR has RR, FS, and QC all high, mathematically they GAIN more than they LOSE from taking the speedster archetype.
3. Given that quote from Catch, if you were to raise RR by some margin, it could conceivably perform in the same way (within some margin) of how it did before the penalty was applied.
You do NOT know that there will be diminishing returns on what is provided by the archetypes' bonus. You're speculating that.
There is no reason to believe that an inherent bonus would have diminishing returns if you invest a lot into your SAs.
If you have 10 in an SA, why should the bonus mean less to you than someone who has 8? That doesn't make any sense.
If your SA is 15, you have already suffered the diminished values on the way through 11-15 raising the SA. Why would you experience it again in calculation of the archetype bonus? There's no reason to believe the bonus performs any differently because it isn't the SA itself, it is a bonus to the SA.
I have no idea why you would jump to that conclusion, and all you've focused on is how I'm wrong or misinformed instead of providing any logical basis to your own assumptions.
Don't post advice if you aren't even going to bother reading the information that is out there. The bonus/penalty from archetypes is a flat percentage increase to the SA itself NOTa flat percentage increase to the effectiveness of the SA.
Secondly, you said you'd still take the speedster archetype if you had a good amount of first step/quick cut (i.e. 9/9 or 10/9), which means:
a) you think the returns from this approach are greater than not picking an archetype or going power archetype (speculation with no factual basis).
b) you are uncertain whether the returns are greater, but attach false value to maximizing your investment indiscriminately (you give bad advice and spread misinformation because you value worthless things).
c) you think the returns from this approach are less than not picking an achetype or going power archetype, but choose the worst option regardless (you are masochistic or stupid).
d) you think the returns from this approach are less than not picking an archetype or going power archetype, but intentionally spread misinformation to hurt others and indirectly benefit yourself (you are a jerk).
I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed option a, but maybe I gave you too much credit...
I've already read your quote. It isn't stating anything in opposition to what I've posted.
It's surprising that you're hung up on the word effectiveness.
You can spare all of us your attempt at being a psychologist. What me saying I'd still pick the Speedster SA constitutes is exactly this and nothing more:
1. Speedsters benefit mostly from the SAs First Step and Quick Cut. This is my speculation.
2. Speedsters are receiving bonuses to those SAs. While they are also receiving penalties to route running and sticky hands, if a WR has RR, FS, and QC all high, mathematically they GAIN more than they LOSE from taking the speedster archetype.
3. Given that quote from Catch, if you were to raise RR by some margin, it could conceivably perform in the same way (within some margin) of how it did before the penalty was applied.
You do NOT know that there will be diminishing returns on what is provided by the archetypes' bonus. You're speculating that.
There is no reason to believe that an inherent bonus would have diminishing returns if you invest a lot into your SAs.
If you have 10 in an SA, why should the bonus mean less to you than someone who has 8? That doesn't make any sense.
If your SA is 15, you have already suffered the diminished values on the way through 11-15 raising the SA. Why would you experience it again in calculation of the archetype bonus? There's no reason to believe the bonus performs any differently because it isn't the SA itself, it is a bonus to the SA.
I have no idea why you would jump to that conclusion, and all you've focused on is how I'm wrong or misinformed instead of providing any logical basis to your own assumptions.
the hurricane
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Originally posted by Djinnt
I've already read your quote. It isn't stating anything in opposition to what I've posted.
It's surprising that you're hung up on the word effectiveness.
You can spare all of us your attempt at being a psychologist. What me saying I'd still pick the Speedster SA constitutes is exactly this and nothing more:
1. Speedsters benefit mostly from the SAs First Step and Quick Cut. This is my speculation.
2. Speedsters are receiving bonuses to those SAs. While they are also receiving penalties to route running and sticky hands, if a WR has RR, FS, and QC all high, mathematically they GAIN more than they LOSE from taking the speedster archetype.
3. Given that quote from Catch, if you were to raise RR by some margin, it could conceivably perform in the same way (within some margin) of how it did before the penalty was applied.
You do NOT know that there will be diminishing returns on what is provided by the archetypes' bonus. You're speculating that.
There is no reason to believe that an inherent bonus would have diminishing returns if you invest a lot into your SAs.
If you have 10 in an SA, why should the bonus mean less to you than someone who has 8? That doesn't make any sense.
If your SA is 15, you have already suffered the diminished values on the way through 11-15 raising the SA. Why would you experience it again in calculation of the archetype bonus? There's no reason to believe the bonus performs any differently because it isn't the SA itself, it is a bonus to the SA.
I have no idea why you would jump to that conclusion, and all you've focused on is how I'm wrong or misinformed instead of providing any logical basis to your own assumptions.
SA points over 10 are subject to diminishing returns. This is a known fact stated by Bort on many occasions. One of catch22's examples is that with a 20% bonus someone with 10 in the SA effectively has 12 in the SA. The archetype bonus is stated to be a flat percentage increase to the SA itself. The remaining SA rules have not been changed at all.
Therefore we know that if the SA level is pushed over 10 by the archetype bonus, that the diminishing returns kick in. There is no double counting of diminishing returns. The archetype bonus is a flat percentage that is the same for everybody. It's not like you get a smaller percentage increase in the level of your SA if you are over 10. The diminishing returns are for the impact of the SA, the part that actually matters. People push themselves over by choice. They still get some benefit. Its just less of a benefit on the margin then going from 1 to 2 or 9 to 10.
I've already read your quote. It isn't stating anything in opposition to what I've posted.
It's surprising that you're hung up on the word effectiveness.
You can spare all of us your attempt at being a psychologist. What me saying I'd still pick the Speedster SA constitutes is exactly this and nothing more:
1. Speedsters benefit mostly from the SAs First Step and Quick Cut. This is my speculation.
2. Speedsters are receiving bonuses to those SAs. While they are also receiving penalties to route running and sticky hands, if a WR has RR, FS, and QC all high, mathematically they GAIN more than they LOSE from taking the speedster archetype.
3. Given that quote from Catch, if you were to raise RR by some margin, it could conceivably perform in the same way (within some margin) of how it did before the penalty was applied.
You do NOT know that there will be diminishing returns on what is provided by the archetypes' bonus. You're speculating that.
There is no reason to believe that an inherent bonus would have diminishing returns if you invest a lot into your SAs.
If you have 10 in an SA, why should the bonus mean less to you than someone who has 8? That doesn't make any sense.
If your SA is 15, you have already suffered the diminished values on the way through 11-15 raising the SA. Why would you experience it again in calculation of the archetype bonus? There's no reason to believe the bonus performs any differently because it isn't the SA itself, it is a bonus to the SA.
I have no idea why you would jump to that conclusion, and all you've focused on is how I'm wrong or misinformed instead of providing any logical basis to your own assumptions.
SA points over 10 are subject to diminishing returns. This is a known fact stated by Bort on many occasions. One of catch22's examples is that with a 20% bonus someone with 10 in the SA effectively has 12 in the SA. The archetype bonus is stated to be a flat percentage increase to the SA itself. The remaining SA rules have not been changed at all.
Therefore we know that if the SA level is pushed over 10 by the archetype bonus, that the diminishing returns kick in. There is no double counting of diminishing returns. The archetype bonus is a flat percentage that is the same for everybody. It's not like you get a smaller percentage increase in the level of your SA if you are over 10. The diminishing returns are for the impact of the SA, the part that actually matters. People push themselves over by choice. They still get some benefit. Its just less of a benefit on the margin then going from 1 to 2 or 9 to 10.
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