Warrior General Games

What do you guys think? not sure where to go with him now. He performs decent for his first pro year... considering the time he gets on the field... Where would you guys go from here? I'm training jump/stam right now... only cause I can't figure what else would be worthwhile.

Daniel Tukuafu (Lv. 57 DT)
Ht/Wt: 6'5", 338lbs

Experience, Skill Points, and Cash
Money: $522838
Daily Salary: $9000
Skill Points: 1
Training Points: 0
Bonus Tokens: 0
Veteran Points: 0
Next Level: 630/1000

Attributes
Physical Attributes
Strength: 106.17 (+26)
Speed: 71.96 (+1)
Agility: 91.17 (+14)
Jumping: 38
Stamina: 47
Vision: 69.77
Confidence: 50.77

Football Skills
Blocking: 17.77
Catching: 8
Tackling: 68.31
Throwing: 8
Carrying: 8
Kicking: 8
Punting: 10

Special Abilities
Pass Rusher Abilities
The Glare: 2
Shed Blocks: 4
Swat Ball: 0
Strong Base: 0
Big Sack: 0

Run Stuffer Abilities
Wall: 12
Break Through: 3
Snarl: 3
Big Hit: 5
D-Line General: 1

Veteran Abilities
Jump the Snap: 15
Pass Rusher: 12
Power Tackler: 15

Only thing I can say is that from a training efficiency standpoint, jump/stamina is probably the worst choice.

Originally posted by nottom
Only thing I can say is that from a training efficiency standpoint, jump/stamina is probably the worst choice.

Are you serious? Thats the best choice. What would be better?

Originally posted by regoob2
Are you serious? Thats the best choice. What would be better?

Think about the training on a SP/train basis rather than an attribute point/train. Stamina/Jumping at 38/47 returns 16%/23% on intense -- or .39 SP per intense train.

Something "crazy" like Speed/Agility at 72/77 would return 6%/5% but since speed is past 3rd cap and agility is past the 4th that's worth .24/.20 SP or .44 total SP per train

I guess its not as terrible as I originally though (training at 38 is better than I remembered), as long as you don't roll over stamina prior to adding an SP or two to cap it.

I would go for more SPD. Get rid of Jump the Snap next season for Heavyweight.

How is he doing with the 12 in WALL?

Considering he is out leveled big time he is holding his own just fine. It's a very hard position to grasp imo because it's hard to get sacks as a DT, even tho I've gotten one and a Forced Fumble on the QB same play.... in pro, but ya... So dump jump the snap for heavyweight?

Can you back that decision I'd appreciate it.

Originally posted by evynnesmith@gmail.com
Considering he is out leveled big time he is holding his own just fine. It's a very hard position to grasp imo because it's hard to get sacks as a DT, even tho I've gotten one and a Forced Fumble on the QB same play.... in pro, but ya... So dump jump the snap for heavyweight?

Can you back that decision I'd appreciate it.

With your 106 STR Heavyweight is a natural fit. The VA increases the chance of knocking down your defender when breaking a block. I don't think it will help you get sacks but will increase the amount of tackles/game. I use it on my players, when you watch replays you can see the Oline falling down and the dot shrinking allowing your player to get to the QB/ ball carrier.

And what has Jump the Snap done for you? Your 70 vision will get you off the line quickly most of the time.

Originally posted by nottom
Think about the training on a SP/train basis rather than an attribute point/train. Stamina/Jumping at 38/47 returns 16%/23% on intense -- or .39 SP per intense train.

Something "crazy" like Speed/Agility at 72/77 would return 6%/5% but since speed is past 3rd cap and agility is past the 4th that's worth .24/.20 SP or .44 total SP per train

I guess its not as terrible as I originally though (training at 38 is better than I remembered), as long as you don't roll over stamina prior to adding an SP or two to cap it.

I think you are forgetting to divide those numbers by two. Intense training affects two attributes at half the rate of normal training with no activity. In your scenario it would actually be a difference of .025SP per intense train.

You also neglect to account for the distinction between SPs and attribute points. Attribute points are what makes a player good. Skill points are just a means to acquiring attribute points (and SA points). As a D-Lineman attribute points in the primary attributes are quite important, but it is still important to have some attribute points in the minors as well. I would much rather train low minor attributes and gain many attribute points a season at the expense of a few SPs in the long run, saving my SPs from leveling and bonus tokens to put towards the major attributes, than I would train high major attributes, gaining an attribute point or two every season and a half, forcing myself to use my SPs on the minors to stay competitive.

Hurricane, that's kinda how I was looking at it, but not sure what the overall thoughts from others were. So I guess it seems like it's still a mixed bag as far as what other believe is the best way.

Originally posted by the hurricane
I think you are forgetting to divide those numbers by two. Intense training affects two attributes at half the rate of normal training with no activity. In your scenario it would actually be a difference of .025SP per intense train.

When you look at it separately yes, but the total training gain is important as well. In the end we are just comparing 2 numbers so it doesn't really matter if you divide or not.


Originally posted by the hurricane
I would much rather train low minor attributes and gain many attribute points a season at the expense of a few SPs in the long run, saving my SPs from leveling and bonus tokens to put towards the major attributes, than I would train high major attributes, gaining an attribute point or two every season and a half, forcing myself to use my SPs on the minors to stay competitive.

Why?

If, for example, I have a 4th capped attribute and I want to raise it a point. I can either spend 5 SP to raise it 1, or I can train it @ 6% for the better part of a season. If my alternative is training some minor attribute in the low 40s that is getting < 20%/train and would only gain 4 points during the same time span, then I'm better off spending my SPs on the lower attribute thus freeing up an SP to use somewhere else.

Everyone wants to squeeze out every tiny bit of value by capping things in the right order and rolling 100000 times to get the perfect starting roll, but then they happily give away value by training inefficiently later in their players life or assigning equipment poorly.

speed to 77 and SB to 10

Originally posted by nottom
Why?

If, for example, I have a 4th capped attribute and I want to raise it a point. I can either spend 5 SP to raise it 1, or I can train it @ 6% for the better part of a season. If my alternative is training some minor attribute in the low 40s that is getting < 20%/train and would only gain 4 points during the same time span, then I'm better off spending my SPs on the lower attribute thus freeing up an SP to use somewhere else.

Everyone wants to squeeze out every tiny bit of value by capping things in the right order and rolling 100000 times to get the perfect starting roll, but then they happily give away value by training inefficiently later in their players life or assigning equipment poorly.

While you are right that nothing changes rankwise, the SP gap is smaller than you originally claimed. That was my only reason for mentioning the math error. SP difference between these two strategies over the course of a career of intense training is under 5SP.

As for your take on training strategy, you neglect to account for two factors:

1) Training is not continuous, it is stepwise.
2) Once a player is ready to be competitive, there is a time value to attribute points.

In your Speed/Agility at 72/77 returning 3%/2.5% example, it would take a little under 2.5 seasons to gain those two attribute points through intense training. Alternatively someone who used their SPs on Speed and Agility and used intense training on their lower attributes would gain the speed and agility attributes points earlier due to the fast rate of SP accumulation and would have shorter lag times between attribute points from training resulting in more attribute points on average over time than the player using your strategy would have.

A player using your strategy would have a minute advantage in overall SPs at the end of his career, but would have had less SPs on average over time.

If one were to get technical, which I know you love to do, the theoretical best way to train would be to follow your strategy while the player is not ready to be competitive (when the time value of attribute points = 0) and then to train low attributes once at a competitive level (when average over time becomes more important).

You need to seriously reevaluate your view on what "everyone" wants to do with their players. People who actually spent the time to get the perfect starting roll are in a very small minority. Most of us realize that an SP or two over the course of a career is not going to make a noticeable difference.

Originally posted by the hurricane
While you are right that nothing changes rankwise, the SP gap is smaller than you originally claimed. That was my only reason for mentioning the math error. SP difference between these two strategies over the course of a career of intense training is under 5SP.

As for your take on training strategy, you neglect to account for two factors:

1) Training is not continuous, it is stepwise.
2) Once a player is ready to be competitive, there is a time value to attribute points.

In your Speed/Agility at 72/77 returning 3%/2.5% example, it would take a little under 2.5 seasons to gain those two attribute points through intense training.
First, if this is what you were referring to when you said to divide by two, it is wrong. You get 6%/5% at those levels, not 3/2.5. 5% is 20 trains, which works out to be a little less than a full day 1 to day 1 season

Originally posted by the hurricane
Alternatively someone who used their SPs on Speed and Agility and used intense training on their lower attributes would gain the speed and agility attributes points earlier due to the fast rate of SP accumulation and would have shorter lag times between attribute points from training resulting in more attribute points on average over time than the player using your strategy would have.

A player using your strategy would have a minute advantage in overall SPs at the end of his career, but would have had less SPs on average over time.

This is balanced by the fact that you fill in your minor attributes faster.

If your argument is that 5 points of a minor attribute is worth less than a point of a major, then you shouldn't be wasting your time training it either and should simply train your major while adding points.

Remember, this effect only happens for attributes within about 10 or so of the 1st cap (and again as you close on other caps but not many people are recommending training something that is at 58). I'm not advising anyone to do add SP to a minor attribute that's in the 20s or even the 30s (ok maybe at 39).


Originally posted by the hurricane


If one were to get technical, which I know you love to do, the theoretical best way to train would be to follow your strategy while the player is not ready to be competitive (when the time value of attribute points = 0) and then to train low attributes once at a competitive level (when average over time becomes more important).

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here, but since I think it has to do with the above point, I'll just leave it be.
Originally posted by the hurricane

You need to seriously reevaluate your view on what "everyone" wants to do with their players. People who actually spent the time to get the perfect starting roll are in a very small minority. Most of us realize that an SP or two over the course of a career is not going to make a noticeable difference.

I see these boards as a place for people to look for advice on how to maximize their player. People can do whatever they want if they value things differently, but I feel like its my job to point out when people are giving a build path that I can show is not as strong as an easily achieved alternative.

Sure, it may only amount to 1-2 SP over a player's career, but if you keep making 1-2 SP mistakes then soon enough you are giving up a noticeable amount to players who don't make those mistakes.

Originally posted by nottom

First, if this is what you were referring to when you said to divide by two, it is wrong. You get 6%/5% at those levels, not 3/2.5. 5% is 20 trains, which works out to be a little less than a full day 1 to day 1 season

You are correct, I was mistaken about this.

Originally posted by nottom

This is balanced by the fact that you fill in your minor attributes faster.

If your argument is that 5 points of a minor attribute is worth less than a point of a major, then you shouldn't be wasting your time training it either and should simply train your major while adding points.

Remember, this effect only happens for attributes within about 10 or so of the 1st cap (and again as you close on other caps but not many people are recommending training something that is at 58). I'm not advising anyone to do add SP to a minor attribute that's in the 20s or even the 30s (ok maybe at 39).



Let me re-frame my argument as you missed my point. Going back to your example: Stamina/Jumping at 38/47 returns 16%/23%, Speed/Agility at 72/77returns 6%/5%.

Player A and B each have identical builds with 38 stamina, 47 jumping, 72 speed, and 77 agility. Player A and B also have 10SP to spend and then they will each intense train for a season.

Player A uses his 10SP on stamina/jumping and player B uses his 10SP on speed/agility. At this point both still have an identical number of SPs.

player A trains speed/agility for a season and gains 10SPs worth of attributes after roughly a season of training. player B trains stamina/jumping for a season and gains roughly 9.5SPs worth of attributes (as per your math). By looking only at the end it appears that player A had the better strategy. But what you neglect to account for is that player B gained his 9.5SPs worth of attributes at a faster rate in smaller increments and has between 4-5SPs MORE on average than player A did over the course of the season. I argue that any player in a competitive situation is better off adopting player B's strategy as the 4-5 extra SPs on average are far more important than the .5SPs at the end.


Originally posted by nottom

I see these boards as a place for people to look for advice on how to maximize their player. People can do whatever they want if they value things differently, but I feel like its my job to point out when people are giving a build path that I can show is not as strong as an easily achieved alternative.

Sure, it may only amount to 1-2 SP over a player's career, but if you keep making 1-2 SP mistakes then soon enough you are giving up a noticeable amount to players who don't make those mistakes.


In this instance the player is level 57. Hardly in the realm of slow building or cap building. At 57 competitive play is the more relevant consideration.

Ok, now after all that, did we come to a conclusion as to where to go? One person said speed to 77 and go for shed blocking?

I have one AEQ piece I am working on I have 24 tokens into it already (+2 jumping, +3 strength, +2 Shed Blocks SA) currently using
Yellow Gloves
Basic yellow gloves.
+1 agility, +7 strength)

so when I finish that I'll have a total of 9 for SB.... so should I take speed to 77 and should I change any of the additional attribues with those hands? +7STR / +1 agility right now.... so far I'm +3 on that pair with the +2 shed blocks and +2 jumping