Warrior General Games

I'm wondering what people would think about a hybrid pancake/offensive build fullback that would be used to demoralize defenses and occasionally run/catch the ball.

I test built to level 50 with the following stats

85(107)str (with lvl56 eq)
75(91)spd ( with eq)
75agi

68cry
44sta
38con
28cat

then with SA's I was thinking something along the lines of
2-2-2-4-8
3-3-6-2-0

and try to get AEQ in Pancake (does this exist?) and Power Thru

I would of course continue training sta/con.

I guess the idea is to rack up lots and lots of pancakes on LBs and DBs and heavily demoralize their team. Also I've heard a lot questioning the value of blocking on a FB so I was thinking of a pancake build as kind of an alternate form of blocking.

Do you guys think I have the right stats in mind for this goal? Or should I go more Str and maybe a little less Spd? Maybe 4th cap carry?

oh I built in this order:

4 cap STR
3 cap AGI
3 cap CRY
4 cap SPD

Here's the problem with the idea...

A) If not built primarily for offense, giving you touches over more capable players is a bad idea... there's a lot more than attributes in the build process. You really do need all the trimmings to be a successful offensive weapon at the higher levels of the game.
B) If built primarily for offense, using you for anything other than gaining yards, is not a good idea... your stamina should be used for breaking tackles, not blocking... although occasionally being used as a decoy/blocker is encouraged.

I would suggest... getting +% break tackle AEQ, get power thru to 8 (or 9 with CE) and take offensive VAs (bruiser/slippery, SYM and scat back). After SAs are good, work on carrying to 73 and blocking to as high as possible. Keep training catching/jumping and stamina/confidence or vision/confidence.

I'm currently the leader in the USAPL MVP race, with my offensive/balanced FB, trust me on this... if I was any less of an offensive build or any more of a blocking build, I would pretty much suck. I'm already having issues rushing this season, but I make up for it with my ability to break multiple 20+ yard catches a game.

Originally posted by Warlock
Here's the problem with the idea...

A) If not built primarily for offense, giving you touches over more capable players is a bad idea... there's a lot more than attributes in the build process. You really do need all the trimmings to be a successful offensive weapon at the higher levels of the game.
B) If built primarily for offense, using you for anything other than gaining yards, is not a good idea... your stamina should be used for breaking tackles, not blocking... although occasionally being used as a decoy/blocker is encouraged.

I would suggest... getting +% break tackle AEQ, get power thru to 8 (or 9 with CE) and take offensive VAs (bruiser/slippery, SYM and scat back). After SAs are good, work on carrying to 73 and blocking to as high as possible. Keep training catching/jumping and stamina/confidence or vision/confidence.

I'm currently the leader in the USAPL MVP race, with my offensive/balanced FB, trust me on this... if I was any less of an offensive build or any more of a blocking build, I would pretty much suck. I'm already having issues rushing this season, but I make up for it with my ability to break multiple 20+ yard catches a game.
To begin with, I very much appreciate your input as a veteran player. So thanks for clicking on this thread.

I've got a few questions, though.

A) I hear what you are saying about giving me touches over an HB, but I wonder about that because aren't balanced FB builds pretty common and obviously, being balanced, that means they get the ball a decent amount right? I thought that this build I had listed here is pretty close to an offensive/rushing FB except for the SAs in Pancake. 100str, 70cry, 90spd, 10+ power thru... isn't that pretty standard offensive FB?

B) I sort of see what you are saying here... this is my line of thinking: Not every single play the FB is in he is going to get the ball... he is going to be doing something else a lot of the time. Do you mean to say that your FB is either going out for passes or running the ball every play he is in the game? The idea of this build is that on those plays instead of standard blocking and holding blocks he will simply run around pancaking people, but again I'm not sure if I am getting exactly what you mean here.

So I'm not sure what you're advocating. I think % break tackle AEQ sounds like a really good deal as well as higher Power Thru, though I was hoping to get Power Thru to 10+ with AEQ anyway.

Are you saying that I should forget the pancake idea and just train blocking? Wouldn't that just make me a normal balanced FB, with some offensive ability and standard blocking? I figured that without worrying about real blocking I could have spend less on agility and blocking and more on Spd, Str, Cry, etc.

I'm definitely not trying to question your knowledge, I'm just not clear on what you are suggesting.

I'm sure just talking through this will help me get a better understanding.

Originally posted by Warlock
Here's the problem with the idea...

A) If not built primarily for offense, giving you touches over more capable players is a bad idea... there's a lot more than attributes in the build process. You really do need all the trimmings to be a successful offensive weapon at the higher levels of the game.
B) If built primarily for offense, using you for anything other than gaining yards, is not a good idea... your stamina should be used for breaking tackles, not blocking... although occasionally being used as a decoy/blocker is encouraged.

I would suggest... getting +% break tackle AEQ, get power thru to 8 (or 9 with CE) and take offensive VAs (bruiser/slippery, SYM and scat back). After SAs are good, work on carrying to 73 and blocking to as high as possible. Keep training catching/jumping and stamina/confidence or vision/confidence.

I'm currently the leader in the USAPL MVP race, with my offensive/balanced FB, trust me on this... if I was any less of an offensive build or any more of a blocking build, I would pretty much suck. I'm already having issues rushing this season, but I make up for it with my ability to break multiple 20+ yard catches a game.

Dude, he doesnt want to know how to build an offensive FB, he's asking if a pancake build used specifically to demoralize the Defense early on in the game is a good idea.

In my limited knowledge of the game i personally think it's a viable idea, most FB with decent speed in a long play (like 60 yd runs, and other high yardage plays) usually get to block one or even two players, and with a pancake build and showboat blocker etd. you could possibly pancake 2 or 3 players when the roll favors you and hopefully if they haven't worked on their confidence a sufficient amount you could start them on a morale spiral, especially if they get scored on the same play.

I think you should try it and see how it works. Fuck doing things like everybody else, you'll never really be happy like that in this game anyways.

Thank you, lol. I mean, that is kind the whole point of this idea... it is unconventional. I appreciate advice on what is tried and true, but at the same time I want to try something new.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
Dude, he doesnt want to know how to build an offensive FB, he's asking if a pancake build used specifically to demoralize the Defense early on in the game is a good idea.

In my limited knowledge of the game i personally think it's a viable idea, most FB with decent speed in a long play (like 60 yd runs, and other high yardage plays) usually get to block one or even two players, and with a pancake build and showboat blocker etd. you could possibly pancake 2 or 3 players when the roll favors you and hopefully if they haven't worked on their confidence a sufficient amount you could start them on a morale spiral, especially if they get scored on the same play.

I think you should try it and see how it works. Fuck doing things like everybody else, you'll never really be happy like that in this game anyways.

If you look at the first part of my post, I answer his question... it's not a viable idea from my experiences. In order to be somewhat decent at pancakes, you give up a fair amount of your ability to be an offensive weapon. Thus, it's much more effective to just find a pancake FB and an offensive FB.

Originally posted by Warlock
If you look at the first part of my post, I answer his question... it's not a viable idea from my experiences. In order to be somewhat decent at pancakes, you give up a fair amount of your ability to be an offensive weapon. Thus, it's much more effective to just find a pancake FB and an offensive FB.

I'm sorry, but I don't see anywhere in your post where you addressed the issue of a pancake build with showboat blocker... the first part of your post you were talking about giving him the ball... which isn't really what the build is about... at all... it's about using him as a blocker to pancake defenders left and right for the first half and to couple that with showboat blocker to drive down their morale so that during the second half the offense can take advantage of their depressed morale.

In the second part of your post you said that if he wasn't getting yards it wasn't a good idea... what about blocking WR's who make certain HB's like Dooley possible because of what they do, are they also not a good idea in your mind? Sure they play a very specialized role, but they play a role nonetheless and allowed for a team to dominate when used correctly.

I may be a noob with little experience compared to you, but I believe that it could work and could have a place to be used. Whether he would be able to do it enough to the Defence to make a significant impact on morale is still up in the air, but i believe that it's a logical idea. And unconventional builds starting in logical places are always worth trying IMO. You wouldn't see much in the way of stats., but if it did work you would be the backbone of a successful team.

Originally posted by MileHighShoes
I'm sorry, but I don't see anywhere in your post where you addressed the issue of a pancake build with showboat blocker... the first part of your post you were talking about giving him the ball... which isn't really what the build is about... at all... it's about using him as a blocker to pancake defenders left and right for the first half and to couple that with showboat blocker to drive down their morale so that during the second half the offense can take advantage of their depressed morale.

In the second part of your post you said that if he wasn't getting yards it wasn't a good idea... what about blocking WR's who make certain HB's like Dooley possible because of what they do, are they also not a good idea in your mind? Sure they play a very specialized role, but they play a role nonetheless and allowed for a team to dominate when used correctly.

I may be a noob with little experience compared to you, but I believe that it could work and could have a place to be used. Whether he would be able to do it enough to the Defence to make a significant impact on morale is still up in the air, but i believe that it's a logical idea. And unconventional builds starting in logical places are always worth trying IMO. You wouldn't see much in the way of stats., but if it did work you would be the backbone of a successful team.

Originally posted by Warlock
Here's the problem with the idea...

A) If not built primarily for offense, giving you touches over more capable players is a bad idea... there's a lot more than attributes in the build process. You really do need all the trimmings to be a successful offensive weapon at the higher levels of the game.
B) If built primarily for offense, using you for anything other than gaining yards, is not a good idea... your stamina should be used for breaking tackles, not blocking... although occasionally being used as a decoy/blocker is encouraged.

What I'm saying here is that... you cannot build a player that can successfully do both (at least at the higher levels of the game). You need a very specific build to get pancakes enough to make attacking morale even worth it. So, this means that you'll be horrible as an offensive threat (in relation to a player who is built specifically to be an offensive threat), if you do build to get a fair amount of pancakes.

I know this because, my FB was a blocking build the first half of his career and he still retains the ability to block. 100+ strength, ~60 blocking and 4 in the pancake SA... that equates to 14 pancakes over the past 4 seasons with limited blocking opportunities... even if you quadruple the opportunities, it's still nowhere near enough to make showboat blocker worthwhile (also take into consideration that 75% of those pancakes came against shitty teams).

A pancake blocking build is effective and an offensive build is effective too... but when combined into a single player, both aspects are full of fail. Because you have a pancake FB that rarely gets pancakes and a offensive FB that is second fiddle to giving the ball to any other offensive player built specifically to make plays.

A blocking WR that cannot also catch passes is pretty much worthless in the higher leagues. They make an offense one dimensional and are easily exposed. Also, I said that an offensive build FB that wasn't being used to gain yards, was not a good idea... any player used improperly (I.E. not to their strengths), is never a good idea (barring use as a decoy).

oh okay i get what you meant, i just wasn't understanding your point

Seems like he's going for the idea of the old Tackle Back. Pure blocker, never given the ball, and exists simply to demoralize the D. Of course, Tackle Backs were used when they commonly had 4 men in the backfield. I don't know that its been used since about the 40's, but the idea of a pure blocking FB is not new. Think about the Chicago Bears putting William Perry in the backfield.

If your going for the pure blocker build, understand that unless the coaches know what to do with you, you won't see a lot of playtime.

Its pretty tough to pull off a good pancaking FB. As previously mentioned, you have to completely forgo the idea that you'll ever touch the ball.

Beyond that, getting pancakes with FBs is pretty tough all on its own. You need to have speed and agility pretty high or else your RB will run right past you in the backfield. Even if you can keep up with him you will likely just smash yourself into a DE or DT that you may block, but you wont pancake.

So you have to have high speed and agility to get through the line, REALLY high strength and blocking to get the pancake and enough vision to be able to know who to hit. You can definitely get some morale loss, but you almost have to out-level most of the defenders to pull it off.

All in all, I would say leave the pancaking to the line and TEs. The main objective is to hold a block long enough for the HB to slip through. You'll never be able to pancake a MLB and then a safety while your HB is weaving through traffic. You hit the MLB and the HB is already flying by - like it should be.

A realllly good blocking back can be a so-so offensive weapon and vice-versa, but I dont think Ive ever seen one player who is both.

I have a pretty good blocking FB, I was trying to improve on his AEQ, I have 2 pieces of + run block and I was hoping to find something better, well, I rolled a +3 carry +5% break tackle AEQ which would be an amaizing piece but we already have an offensive specialist FB with a good build and + Power Thourgh and % break tackle gear and most VAs spent in offensive categories. I look at that gear and cry but at lvl 60 its a bit late to chance your build

I disagree on not getting pankackes as a FB, maybe not so many on the inside runs, but on the outside runs and screens FBs as well as TEs and OTs with Outside blocker OWN. Most OLBs, CBs, and safeties only carry 60 or so STR as they have to worry more about speed, agi, vision, tackling. A FB with 100 str and 80 speed/agi with Outside blocker 2% to speed, agi, blocking and vision I think is pretty much as beastly as you can get. I think this prompted a change to the Outside blocker mechanics in the offseason but its still pretty OP.

As a follow up question, for an offensive FB, what do you preffer, Slippery or Bruiser. My friends FB has 12 power through and 21% + break block through AEQ, with 15 in bruiser, 15 in SYM and 13 in Tenacious right now. He's at around 98str, 90speed, 78agi and 71 carry. I'm the OC and I try to get him involved. Most time he makes a catch there isnt anyone around him because DCs dont account for him allot so we figured YAC would be useless. He normaly picks up 10+ yards before he's touched and Bruiser does not help as much as Slippery would? Thoughts? On the other hand I also use him for runs up the middle and to the outside and extra break block from bruiser maybe usefull there?

It depends on how you utilize the player...

Slippery is better for a FB who catches more than he runs. Bruiser is better for a FB who runs more than he catches.

You also have to take into account the player's vision, agility and speed. Good agility and speed is needed to make running on 50% elusive not suck (they don't have to be insane or anything, 70/90 for a FB is good enough IMHO).

I would tell your friend to drop the power thru AEQ and get +% break tackle AEQ, then reset bruiser for slippery. Tenacious is a "meh" VA IMHO... scat back would be a much better choice (YAC attack is a good 4th VA).

I would use him as an added threat... an offensive threat at FB gives an OC the power to keep defenses honest. Every two back formation has the option to use the FB for inside runs, outside runs and as a receiving threat. If you mix it up well, DCs will have to account for the FB (which opens the door for someone else on the offense) or the FB has a field day against them (if they don't account for him). With the proper use of auto-adjust, to adapt the play-calling to what's working (or away from what isn't working), you should be able to rape defenses that don't account for the FB.

P.S. No one said that FBs cannot get pancakes... we're merely saying that in order to get them consistently, you won't be a very good offensive threat. You just won't have the attributes/SAs/VAs necessary.