Warrior General Games

Anybody use it last season for either safety spoy?

yes

for the FS spot, it's pretty much mandatory for any team that relies anything besides cover 0, which is most teams.

For FS, most all FSs should have it maxed out at 15 (or rumored 20 when you hit lvl 50).

I am not a fan of it. I put my vet points into skills that I get 100% of the time... not 50% or lower of the time.

Originally posted by chronoaug
For FS, most all FSs should have it maxed out at 15 (or rumored 20 when you hit lvl 50).

I wouldn't take it before Football Genius, since 90% of the value if not more is for the vision increase. But it's my #2 VA for sure.

Originally posted by Challenge Everything
I am not a fan of it. I put my vet points into skills that I get 100% of the time... not 50% or lower of the time.

Makes sense if you always man up on a guy. but I think it's fair to say that on average, a safety is probably in zone around 80% or more of the time. That includes run plays.

Originally posted by secondeye
Originally posted by Challenge Everything
I am not a fan of it. I put my vet points into skills that I get 100% of the time... not 50% or lower of the time. Makes sense if you always man up on a guy. but I think it's fair to say that on average, a safety is probably in zone around 80% or more of the time. That includes run plays.
In theory, yes. I place Quick, Football Genius, and Track Star ahead of Zone Specialist though. No concrete evidence that they are better, than again there is no concrete evidence to say ZP is better either. I simply prefer the hard number improvement compared to the "possibility" of improvement.

Originally posted by secondeye
Makes sense if you always man up on a guy. but I think it's fair to say that on average, a safety is probably in zone around 80% or more of the time. That includes run plays.
The thing to bear in mind about ZS is that it's only active until the pass is completed. So on run plays it's going to be active only for a very brief period. It's still a useful VA though.

My FS is in zone probably 90% of the time. Helps him read the run play and react a hair quicker, and definitely helps him get in position on passing plays better with a 15% bonus to spd/vis/agi. Gets over for PDs, INTs, and puts him in position to make a tackle. Rather than a 15% bonus in spd, a 13%bonus in agility, and 0% in vision or however you want to split them up (i have 28 vet points). If i'm chasing a guy down from behind or stretching across the whole field to make some kind of play, my FS is obviously doing something wrong before the pass was made. Zone Specialist worked really well last season. I noticed a definite improvement in watching replays.

Originally posted by Challenge Everything
Originally posted by secondeye

Originally posted by Challenge Everything

I am not a fan of it. I put my vet points into skills that I get 100% of the time... not 50% or lower of the time. Makes sense if you always man up on a guy. but I think it's fair to say that on average, a safety is probably in zone around 80% or more of the time. That includes run plays.
In theory, yes. I place Quick, Football Genius, and Track Star ahead of Zone Specialist though. No concrete evidence that they are better, than again there is no concrete evidence to say ZP is better either. I simply prefer the hard number improvement compared to the "possibility" of improvement.

I get what you're saying here. While I disagree with the notion that a FS is in Zone 50% or less of the time, I agree with your underlying theory. Frankly, if you have a FS in Zone 50% or less of the time, your D.C. is drunk at the wheel.

That being said, I think the more legitimate argument is that when you put VA into Quick, Track Star & Football Genius you have a tangible bonus to attributes that make your player better. ZS, while theoretically ideal operates like a SA. Bort doesn't want us to know the objective impact so we avoid "cookie cutter builds", thus we don't really know how effective ZS is. What Challenge everything is getting at is an objective, tangible improvement as opposed to the risk that ZS is a "dummy VA" that doesn't really work.

Now, if you see improvements in replays like chronoaug did that's different, but I'd say ZS is only good for a FS since the bonus disappears once the WR or RB has the ball. SS are huge in run defense and in killing the man w/the ball. I'd say they're better off with other VA. But a FS playing center field, trying to break up passes...that's a guy who should have ZS (assuming it works as chronoaug has suggested).

ZS works just as quick/football genius/track star, but stops working once the receiver fully catches the ball (still works with bobbles). It's not really an SA or a magical activating thing like other VAs or SAs. It adds 1% for each level to spd/agi/vis. Pretty simple really. It's only useful for FSs who are in zone pretty much every play (like my FS). I don't understand how ZS can be considered a dummy VA like jackhammer, powertackler, or sure tackler when it has obvious and tangible benefits.

re: gcmont

I get the 50% from the fact that every play a FS plays in, it is not a pass. Assuming an even split of run/pass, if the FS plays 60 plays, than 30 of them are run, which ZS does not help via the passing game... something ZS was "made" for. So, the FS may be in zone but, from my understanding, the ZS does not work once the runner has the ball. That is where 50% comes from.

Originally posted by chronoaug
ZS works just as quick/football genius/track star, but stops working once the receiver fully catches the ball (still works with bobbles). It's not really an SA or a magical activating thing like other VAs or SAs. It adds 1% for each level to spd/agi/vis. Pretty simple really. It's only useful for FSs who are in zone pretty much every play (like my FS). I don't understand how ZS can be considered a dummy VA like jackhammer, powertackler, or sure tackler when it has obvious and tangible benefits.
ZS can be easily considered a dummy VA because there is a chance it activates. Does ZS help a FS if the team he is playing against runs the ball 90% of the time? Unlikely. Also, using the coin toss theory, the ZS only activates on ~50% of the plays. I do not buy the thought that it works while the QB has the ball before he hands it off. If that is actually true... that is less than half a second, in real time. Are you telling me a FS in less than a half second gains that much benefit? I doubt it, however this is a computer game compared to real life, but I still doubt it.

gcmont understands my theory... give me a vet ability that activates 100% of the time before any "chance" activation. Those vet abilities give a concrete gain compared to a possibility gain.

to be fair, it's not a "possibility" gain.
when you are in zone coverage, you are in zone coverage and ZS works 100% of the time, on pass plays.

i honestly had no idea that it didn't work on run plays or after the WR catches the ball, i thought it simply meant on all plays in which he's called upon to play zone coverage.

even so, i still think it's the most valuable VA for a FS. it's less attractive in that scenario, but still the best.

especially if a FS has a ridiculous amount of SPD/AGI/VIS to begin with, he'll be okay on running plays.

He will be good enough on running plays, especially since FS are seemingly less involved in run defense. However, my inclination is to take advantage of the tangible benefit first before messing with the risks involved with Bort's intangible SA-type benefits. I realize that the way it reads the ZS should always trigger once the FS is in zone...but I think there's justification for being skeptical of these types of VA's even though Bort & co. have the best of intentions.

I think this is analogous to the Vision v. Agility debates. There probably isn't a wrong answer, and unlike SP's, VA's come to you more quickly as you gain experience. So you can more easily add on to them (basically if you pump ZS now you can easily tack on Quick, Track Star & FB Genius later...and vice versa). Ultimately you have to do what you're comfortable with...but I don't think ZS is a clear slam dunk in light of the fact that the bonus disappears when the QB gives the ball to a RB or WR & the bonus is "intangible" in the sense that you don't have the bonus listed on your page & it's a conditional bonus.