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8isgreat
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My FS is at the second cap of speed and vision, and I am working on getting agility there with my next 4-5 levels. Currently, I have all of my equipment (including custom) in speed which is +19. Speed is at 80 with equipment. Is it worthwhile to continue to put equipment points into speed (I have 3 I haven't upgraded yet), or should I start putting the equipment bonus' into agility or vision?
Thanks.
 
RAPB
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If you'll take speed to the third soft cap, you can afford to have some points in vision or agility - otherwise not. Just see it this way: you're supposed to catch the guys that break away from the CBs. So very, very few receivers should be able to outsprint you. 75-80 is CB speed, so you should be at 90+ in the long run.
 
southlight
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http://goallineblitz.com/game/forum_thread.pl?thread_id=1632170

CBs in USA Pro have on average 90-95 speed. Wouldn't surprise me if a number of WRs have 100. They all have like 20 strength and such as a trade-off. This is not an option for FS. Not to mention to catch a 95 speed WR you'll need like 105 in order to catch them before they get to the end zone.

You decide for yourself (and your defense) whether it's worth the arms race.

Furthermore,

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=210260&pbp_id=10545148

This sort of thing is probably a higher concern than preventing a big play by a player designed to make big plays.
Last edited Dec 17, 2008 09:05:48
 
-boz-
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id tell you to put all of your equipment for any postiiton aside from kicker/punter and oline onto speed. You cant afford to not be fast in this game, everyone else already is.
 
Bladnach
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Safteys aren't supposed to be speed demons and they don't have to catch receivers from behind. They're supposed to keep everything in front of them playing their zone defense. Use their vision for reading the routes and being in position. I'd have speed to the 2nd cap for sure, but trying to catch the receivers is pointless as safteys have to be multi-tool players.
 
southlight
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Originally posted by chronoaug
Safteys aren't supposed to be speed demons and they don't have to catch receivers from behind. They're supposed to keep everything in front of them playing their zone defense. Use their vision for reading the routes and being in position. I'd have speed to the 2nd cap for sure, but trying to catch the receivers is pointless as safteys have to be multi-tool players.


Plus it's usually an exercise in futility
 
Kavadas
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Originally posted by chronoaug
Safteys aren't supposed to be speed demons and they don't have to catch receivers from behind. They're supposed to keep everything in front of them playing their zone defense. Use their vision for reading the routes and being in position. I'd have speed to the 2nd cap for sure, but trying to catch the receivers is pointless as safteys have to be multi-tool players.


I agree.

Vision is the most important safety attribute IMO. The more you have the more quickly you respond and the better you are at picking the right angle. Good vision can make up for lack of SPD/AGI. That's why super vision and closing speed are such important SAs IMO.
 
taz20075
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If a WR gets past you, you aren't going to catch him. The trick is getting over to the WR fast enough to make the tackle (vison gets you moving in the right direction sooner). Speed to 80 should be good enough. So then it's about making the tackle (really, as a FS it's always about making the tackle).
 
Bladnach
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If only closing speed wasn't a bitch to upgrade. Have to go through worthless SAs first
 
RAPB
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Originally posted by taz20075
If a WR gets past you, you aren't going to catch him. The trick is getting over to the WR fast enough to make the tackle (vison gets you moving in the right direction sooner). Speed to 80 should be good enough. So then it's about making the tackle (really, as a FS it's always about making the tackle).


That's another philosophy - and I'm pretty sure it will bring quite some more picks: just keep your guy so slow that the WR blows by and hope he'll make a play on the ball for one of those fancy picks. Maybe it'll get you fame and you can always point the finger at the CB for all those big plays on your side.

There's no wrong or right here. Some guys aim for stats, others for team success. Each to it's own.
 
southlight
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This has nothing to do with stats. WRs at USA pro level have 100ish speed. In order for me to hit 100 speed I'd need to spend points in speed that I really need to spend in things like strength and tackling so I don't miss as many tackles. It is a lost cause for me to try to catch any WRs from behind, especially when having high speed and relatively low agility/vision simply gets me juked. Catching a 100 speed player from behind ranks lower on my priority list than making sure I consistently get the tackle on WRs/TEs/RBs. Having 100 speed does not stop being smashed by this http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=210260&pbp_id=10545148 or this http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=210260&pbp_id=10547802

EDIT:
Not to mention in order to catch a 100 speed WR you actually need a somewhat substantially higher amount of speed to catch him before it becomes REALLY questionable as to whether having that high speed was worth it. If it takes 3 seconds for a 100 speed guy to go from his 40 to the end zone, how fast do you need to be to cut him down before he gets there? Obviously closing speed helps, but that skill doesn't close the final 5 or so yard gap.
Last edited Dec 23, 2008 22:21:54
 
RAPB
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Well who's going to take care of speedsters then? Should all CBs raise their speed to 100? I mean...THEY can't focus as much as a safety can.

So if the safeties don't care and focus on the run... and the CBs are not able too... does your team care about the speedsters at all? Focussing on speed, agility and vision has done a lot for my safeties and I still don't miss more than the usual 10% of my tackles - not in USA Pro, but in SA Pro with my FS and next season in EE Pro with my SS. I rather like to have the CBs at mid 80 speed with similar agility and good jumping while my guys take care of the speeds above. That may not be the "right" or only strategy, but at the very least I expect a serious team to take care at all.

So who's defending speedsters at your team?

b.t.w.:
some serious training into strength and tackling will take care for a long while - and speed DOES help bringing down ball carriers:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=282133&pbp_id=11868647
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=282133&pbp_id=11868978
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=282133&pbp_id=11869438
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=285851&pbp_id=12469432
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=285851&pbp_id=12471070 (that's what a safety is for i.m.h.o.)
Last edited Dec 24, 2008 03:48:27
 
southlight
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Frankly, true speedsters will get their touchdowns if the play breaks down. Monmouth Evil Monkeys fired at least three huge pass plays against the Honolulu Hurricane Warriors for touchdowns in their USA West Championship game, and Honolulu also had a giant pass play (to a RB for 80 yards) against the Monkeys. Even the indomitable Boston Nighthawks gave up two huge touchdown passes to the Washington Bullets, one of their few games of defensive lapses over their final championship season (I think they were testing things, because WRs were pretty wide open sometimes). Their FSs are not that fast, as far as I can tell.

What did the Nighthawks do against the Monkeys differently? They seemed to have run more cover 2 and whatnot in order to prevent those big plays from happening at all. This actually resulted in them picking off arguably one of the best QBs in the game 4 times, and taking 2 of those back for a pick-six.

Realistically speaking a QB should have maybe 2 seconds at best against an equally matched defensive line, which means WRs have like 3 seconds (counting ball flight time) to get separation. A good example of how ineffective speed usually is is flames54's epic 112 speed WR with 10 first step. Colon Grifter or something, if you wanna look him up. Quite frankly, there simply is not enough time for that 112 speed to have really gotten very far ahead of the CB, and I'm almost certain those CBs weren't THAT fast. He did not dominate the league, after all, so all that speed clearly didn't result in him turning into the second coming of Randy Moss.

What does happen is if he beats the CB, which will happen for OTHER reasons like agility/vision being tested (Head Fake, Pump Fake, etc.), if he's 1 on 1 against like Cover 0 he'll take it to the house, because there's nothing else there, and no one will catch him from behind.

Unless there's an FS in the way, which SHOULD be the case if your team gameplanned properly and your FS has a decent build. As in, you didn't get pump faked and you don't get juked by a speedy receiver, we get to OttawaShane's response in my thread about FS builds as a whole:

"when I first read your stuff about speed, I questioned your logic on speed - but then an important point came to mind - in C1 which is what my teams play, my FS is never having to catch a guy from behind - he needs lots of speed, but mid-80s is actually sufficient for my league which is mainly L35-40 players, as long as the vision and agility are there."

By the point my FS is *behind* the WR on a big play other factors have clearly led to that being the case, because he should never be behind. And really, he almost never is. For instance, if Cover 2 is called, the WR who should be covered by a CB and an SS breaks open because they both get pump faked, and he takes it to the house because I'm on the complete other side of the field, as much as it'd be great if the FS were God, there's really not a whole lot the FS can or should do. What that play calls for is that the FS prevents the receivers *on his side of the field* from taking it to the house, or really just catching it to begin with, and speed will not do much.

Even with Cover 1, there're more important things than Speed, because with sufficient Vision you'll break toward the intended receiver faster (and I believe agility/vision makes you backpedal faster and maintain better positioning), with sufficient Closing Speed you'll have more than enough acceleration and top speed to make it to most WRs assuming you didn't take a crappy angle (Vision), and then it's up to agility and vision to ensure you don't get juked, then strength and tackle to bring him down.

Personally from an actual safety position (not man on WR) I've never been flat-out burned by anyone. Most big plays that get past me that ARE my responsibility are broken tackles or jukes.

EDIT:
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=285851&pbp_id=12471070 (that's what a safety is for i.m.h.o.)

Aside from the closing speed kicking in I don't think you ever hit max speed on that play. Two things that make me go "hmm" about that play: 1) you got pump faked 2) you never actually got in a footrace with the WR, because he never got ahead of you. Again, you never hit max speed, I don't know if he did, and from that play alone I can't tell if you're actually even faster than the WR. It reminds me a lot of this play:

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=210268&pbp_id=6088454

The difference is that my player made two really bad vision checks which resulted in me 1) making the decision to play medium field against the TE (while I was backpedaling for an instant I slow down and take a step forward before resuming the backpedal), I would surmise failing the vision check on the receiver's deep route also played into this, and then 2) biting HARD on the pump fake, which obliterated any chance of me being in proper Cover 1 position.

EDIT2:
I mean seriously,
http://goallineblitz.com/game/player.pl?player_id=124758&playoffs=0
He just stuck 15 in the Track Star vet, which gives him like 126 speed. Not to mention with play-hard bonus that ends up with him having like 140 speed.
What would be your rationale for entering an arms race with players like that?
At what point do you draw the line?
I'm not saying having high speed is bad, especially because I'll be the first to say build the FS to suit your team's defensive setup, but seriously, attempting to mass speed to run devoted speed receivers from behind is an exercise in futility, IMO.
Last edited Dec 24, 2008 09:27:26
 
VASCO
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Colon was in my team last season, and he had some nice TD

http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=215506&pbp_id=9385900
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=215506&pbp_id=9391946
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=215504&pbp_id=8116415
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=215437&pbp_id=6839205
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=215502&pbp_id=4281691
http://goallineblitz.com/game/replay.pl?game_id=215417&pbp_id=2333913

But I agree with you, we have other things to workout than speed.
We need to be fast, agile, strenght, tackle well.
I'm thinkg seriously in softcap tackling this season, and do the following experience:

1)I have a AE that adds some bonus to FF
2)Put a lot of points (15 maybe?) in power tackler
3)Then a lot of points in sure tackler.
4)Change the tackling style to force fumbles...

doing this by the end of season I will have something like 40% chance to FF

Or invest in football genius, quick and track star
Last edited Dec 24, 2008 10:55:45
 
southlight
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Hahah.

Well I mean that's what happens when you line him up 1v1 with no help
I mean there was one Cover 1 of those plays and on that one the FS was waaaaaaaay too slow (both reaction and accelerating), plus that's a bad play call against an in-and-out route anyways. The end zone one was just hilarious bad play by the FS.
Realistically speaking I'm sure most teams would try to offset that speed with cover 2, and as far as I could tell from a bunch of other plays I checked on him (I was curious about the speed) that sort of setup tends to suppress him... not from getting his yardage but at least cut down well enough on the big plays, so that he wasn't just burning everyone every play

Funny player anyways, though Lovely weapon to have, just a shame you can't pull a Miami Dolphins Ted Ginn Jr with him (with reverses and stuff).

But... yeah.

The force fumble thing is interesting, I found AE with Monster Hit so I'm interested in seeing how that turns out as well. Sure Tackler + Normal/Power Tackle(tactic) is an interesting one, hadn't thought of that.
 
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